Time for Truth

[John Iacoletti]

With the aid of his handwritten notes, of course. You're not going to pretend Fritz' notes were written up days later, are you?

They absolutely were. I’m surprised you don’t know this.

[David Von Pein]

You're not going to pretend Fritz' notes were written up days later, are you?

They absolutely were. I’m surprised you don’t know this.

Yes, you're correct. After seeing your post here, I refreshed my memory on this topic by revisiting Captain Fritz' WC testimony [at 4 H 209], and Fritz did, indeed, say his notes were created "several days later".

I had totally forgotten about that Fritz testimony, even though I know I've read it in the past when this same topic has come up at the various JFK forums.

So, I officially stand corrected on this point regarding J.W. Fritz' notes.

Thank you.

[Martin Weidmann]

With the aid of his handwritten notes, of course. You're not going to pretend Fritz' notes were written up days later, are you?


I have some serious doubts as to whether that event took place.

It's not surprising, though, to see the conspiracy theorists jumping for joy after Buell Frazier came up with that story about Captain Fritz 39 years after it allegedly occurred (while never saying a word about it prior to 2002).

But, what do I know? Maybe it did happen. But the 39-year delay should make a person at least wonder about it a little bit.

More about Mr. Frazier's multiple late-arriving bombshell tales here.


The one and only source for the "1:03" or "1:04" departure time for Oswald is Earlene Roberts' absurdly long (IMO) estimate of the length of time Oswald was inside his room ("3 or 4 minutes").

But if the actual time that LHO spent in that room was along the lines of 30 to 60 seconds (which is very likely much more accurate, especially given the "hurried" nature that Oswald was said to have exhibited during both his arrival and his departure from the roominghouse that day), then that would have provided Oswald with up to 3 additional minutes to travel the 0.85 mile from 1026 Beckley to 10th & Patton.

But a CTer named Martin Weidmann, who just said in his last post that he thinks Mrs. Roberts is an "unreliable witness", seems to want to embrace Roberts' "3 or 4 minutes" testimony as the absolute truth. Therefore, per many CTers, Mrs. Roberts' estimate is now written in stone and has (somehow) been turned into a rock-solid and proven fact. (Pot meets Kettle once more, it would seem.)

Helen Markham's Bus --- Click Here.

Also See --- Tippit Timelines.


No, she didn't. When Mrs. Roberts was shown Oswald's gray zipper jacket (CE162), she did say "It seems like the one he put on was darker than that", but she didn't flat-out "deny" that CE162 was the jacket she saw Oswald wearing on Nov. 22nd. In fact, she said "Well, maybe it was". And she also said "I won't be sure, because I really don't know." (Source: 6 H 439.)

I have some serious doubts as to whether that event took place.

It's not surprising, though, to see the conspiracy theorists jumping for joy after Buell Frazier came up with that story about Captain Fritz 39 years after it allegedly occurred (while never saying a word about it prior to 2002).

But, what do I know? Maybe it did happen. But the 39-year delay should make a person at least wonder about it a little bit.

Of course you have serious doubts. You have an agenda and want to discredit every witness who says something that does not fit your desired narrative.
If you really want to wonder about something why not do so over the fact that Fritz made no attempt whatsoever to accurately record verbatim what Oswald said during the interrogation.


The one and only source for the "1:03" or "1:04" departure time for Oswald is Earlene Roberts' absurdly long (IMO) estimate of the length of time Oswald was inside his room ("3 or 4 minutes").

But if the actual time that LHO spent in that room was along the lines of 30 to 60 seconds (which is very likely much more accurate, especially given the "hurried" nature that Oswald was said to have exhibited during both his arrival and his departure from the roominghouse that day), then that would have provided Oswald with up to 3 additional minutes to travel the 0.85 mile from 1026 Beckley to 10th & Patton.

And if LHO spent 5 minutes in that room he would have had even less time to get to 10th & Patton. Your entire argument is hot air. You don't know how long Oswald was in his room and what he did there. Nor do you know how long he waited at the bus stop where Roberts saw him. Even if Oswald did arrive at 1 PM and left the house again a minute later and then waited only one minute at the bus stop that still has him leaving Beckley at around 1:02 PM at the earliest. To walk the distance to 10th & Patton, on the fastest route, would have taken him 11 minutes. That means he would have arrived at 10th & Patton at 1:13 PM at the earliest. By then Markham would have been at the bus stop on Jefferson, as it only took her 6 minutes max to walk the two blocks from 9th to Jefferson.

But a CTer named Martin Weidmann, who just said in his last post that he thinks Mrs. Roberts is an "unreliable witness", seems to want to embrace Roberts' "3 or 4 minutes" testimony as the absolute truth. Therefore, per many CTers, Mrs. Roberts' estimate is now written in stone and has (somehow) been turned into a rock-solid and proven fact. (Pot meets Kettle once more, it would seem.)

You simply can not make an argument without mentioning what you (often incorrectly) think CTrs and non-believers think. It's pathetic. I am not embracing Roberts' "3 or 4 minutes" estimate. It is you who wants to reduce that timeframe based on what you (foolishly) think is "reasonable". I don't rely on Roberts for anything solid. You do... except for those things she said that you don't like. Hypocrite!

Helen Markham's Bus --- Click Here.

Also See --- Tippit Timelines.

Sorry, not interested in your discussions with others.

The facts in Markham's case are fairly straight foward, whether you like it or not. She left her home just after 1 PM to go to the washateria to (iirc) make a phone call. After that, at around 1:06 PM, she was on her way to the bus stop on Jefferson to catch her regular bus to work. Anybody who takes the same bus to work every day is accutely aware of the time. To argue otherwise is just plain silly. The FBI checked the distance from 9th street to Jefferson and found that it took about 2,5 minutes to pass one block. In other words, if Markham left at 1:06 PM and walked two blocks she would have arrived at the Jefferson bus stop 5 to 6 minutes later, at around 1:12 PM, where she would have taken the first available bus. In her estimate that normally happened around 1:15 PM. As busses seldom arrived exactly on time, she could have taken a delayed bus that should have arrived at 1:12 PM or the next one.

Markham's timeline is also corroborated by Bowley's. He picked up his daughter from school just before 1 PM and was on his way to pick up his wife. The fastest route (Marsalis) would have taken him 13 minutes, so if he left the school just before 1 PM, he would have arrived at 10th street at around 1:10 PM (just as he said) and by then Tippit was already shot. Markham would have arrived at 10th & Patton, after a 2,5 or 3 minute walk, at around 1:08 or 1:09 PM, just before the shooting. It all matches up. And how do we know with certainty that Bowley arrived at the scene only seconds after the shooting? Easy, when Ted Callaway heard the shots, he hesitated for a moment, shouted something at the man coming towards him and ran the distance between his position and the scene, which was less than a block. When Callaway arrived at the scene, Bowley was not only already there but also had made his 45 seconds (iirc) call to the DPD dispatcher.

Markham witnessing the shots being fired, Bowley's arrival and call to DPD before Callaway arrived at the scene after running only a distance of 2/3 of a block all tie in together. This means that if you want to move the timeline to later, you need to explain what Markham was doing during those 6 or 7 extra minutes and why Bowley needed the same extra time to drive the distance to the scene.

It isn't a coincidence (IMO) that roughly at timestamp 1:12 the dictabelt recording of DPD radio goes haywire for nearly two minutes.

No, she didn't. When Mrs. Roberts was shown Oswald's gray zipper jacket (CE162), she did say "It seems like the one he put on was darker than that", but she didn't flat-out "deny" that CE162 was the jacket she saw Oswald wearing on Nov. 22nd. In fact, she said "Well, maybe it was". And she also said "I won't be sure, because I really don't know." (Source: 6 H 439.)

More vagueness. If Roberts isn't sure, she's not only contradicting her previous statement (the one you relied on) but she offers no confirmation at all that CE162 is in fact the jacket she saw. If she actually saw a jacket at all! We are dealing here with a woman who is blind in one eye and doesn't see much with the other. Not only that but she was concentrating on getting the television to work, which means she had her back turned to the living room. Oswald's room was in the back of the living room and she would not have seen him as he walked towards the front door. There she may have caught a glance of him but only for one or two seconds. Add to this that there is evidence that places CE162 in Irving on Thursday evening and all you've got is absolutely nothing conclusive as far as the jacket is concerned.

[John Iacoletti]

To walk the distance to 10th & Patton, on the fastest route, would have taken him 11 minutes.

And that route doesn’t involve walking west on 10th street, so it doesn’t work.

[Walt Cakebread]

Re: the topic of "Did Mrs. Roberts Actually See Oswald Enter The Roominghouse On 11/22/63?"....

There are multiple ways to verify that she was telling the truth about that. Besides Oswald's own admission (see my next comment), there's also cab driver William Whaley, who took Oswald to the general area of his roominghouse on 11/22. (Am I now supposed to believe that Whaley took some Oswald look-alike to Oak Cliff instead of the real LHO?)

Given all the things that verify Oswald went to 1026 Beckley on 11/22, is it truly reasonable to believe otherwise? I think not.


Captain Fritz. (See WCR Page 601, below.)

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0313a.htm


Conspiracy theorists never seem to want to evaluate ALL of Earlene Roberts' testimony concerning the time that Oswald spent in his room. It's true that Mrs. Roberts testified that Oswald "went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], but it's also a fact that she also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440].

No CTer ever wants to add in that last important statement made by Roberts.

And does it really take 3 or 4 minutes to wander around a closet-sized bedroom and grab a jacket, a gun, and a few bullets?

Also.....if Oswald was walking faster than the WC investigators who timed the trip from Neely St. to 1026 Beckley at 5 min./45 sec., then Oswald would have reached his room prior to 1:00. That fact, coupled with the almost certain fact that he was only in that room (per Mrs. Roberts) "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket", plus the additional unknown factor of Oswald possibly walking very fast or even running at least part of the way from Beckley to 10th Street (we'll never know his speed for certain), gives LHO ample time to make it to the site of J.D. Tippit's murder by approx. 1:14 to 1:15 PM CST (which is the time when the sum total of evidence indicates Tippit was very likely shot).


Maybe you'd better listen again to this 11/22 interview with Mrs. Roberts. If you fast-forward to 2:40 you'll hear Roberts say that Oswald left his room wearing a "short gray coat".

Yes, Roberts said something different later on regarding the jacket color. But on Day One, she said "short gray coat".

Of course, we could now start discussing the various shades of "gray" that exist in the color spectrum—light gray vs. dark gray vs. medium gray, etc.

Bonus Link:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-lee-harvey-oswalds-room.html

cab driver William Whaley, who took Oswald to the general area of his roominghouse on 11/22. (Am I now supposed to believe that Whaley took some Oswald look-alike to Oak Cliff instead of the real LHO?)

There is a great deal of evidence that Lee was NOT Whaley's passenger that Friday afternoon.

One piece of that evidence is the FACT that Lee said he engaged in small talk with the cab driver as they traveled....and then he paid the cabbie a fare of 85 cents ....     It's recorded in Whaley's trip log that his passenger paid a fare of 95 cents.  And Whaley said that his passenger was dressed in BLUE workman's uniform..... Lee was wearing a reddish brown shirt a grey trousers....

It's beyond my comprehension how some folks continue to believe Whaley's BS.

[Zeon Mason]

This Oswald chose to ride in the FRONT seat so the cab driver could get a real close up of his face, as well as displaying a gold bracelet on his wrist , which theoretically should have been not that easily visible if he had on an OVERSIZE jacket = sleeves longer than necessary.

There  seems to be a pattern with this Oswald of drawing attention to himself.

1. He bangs on the doors of McWaters bus and he sits for only a couple of minutes and then wants a transfer ticket from McWaters AS he is also interrupting other passenger trying to get ON the bus.

2. He decides to take Whaleys Taxi just AS another woman is about to get the taxi and makes a point of demonstrating himself rather than just stopping himself When he saw the woman. Instead he made a point of “competing”with woman by engaging in unnecessary conversation of asking her if she wanted the cab, then offering it to her.

3. In addition to the Front seat ride, this Oswald person further gave the cab driver an easy reason to recall him by NOT showing any interest in the event that the REST of the WORLD was fixated upon: The assassination of the POTUS. This Oswald remained silent as he sat right next to the cab driver Whaley , even after Whaley asked him about the event.

4. This Oswald person then made  it easy for the boarding room lady Earlene Roberts to be wondering about his behavior by showing NO INTEREST in the reports  of the national emergency event that Roberts herself was watching on the TV .

5. This Oswald then left and took some kind of walking stroll somewhere that did something to attract the attention of DPD officer Tippet just passing by 10th and Patton, enough to cause the cop to slow down and follow him for a while.

6. Then there was the dramatic 4 shots fired by this Oswald at Tippet, in midst of onlooking witness, the final shot being delivered to the head by walking over to the body of Tippet laying on the ground.

7. Then this Oswald did  NOT quickly leave the scene, but walked over CLOSE to Markam kind of casually, and as he took  about another minute at least to  empty revolver shells one by one, discarding them in LOS of several observers at the scene.

8. This Oswald decided then that he should draw as much attention to himself as possible by holding the pistol up  in the air as he began  a trot down the street.

9. Of all the places that this Oswald could have chosen to discard a jacket UNSEEN doing so, he instead chose  a fairly public car lot and threw  the jacket under the car . He thenwalked  out to the MAIN st after he had just gone past several people who saw him just previously with jacket on and/or  saw him throw the jacket under the car.

10. On to Brewers store, where this Oswald stops in just WHEN a police car goes by, and then he just stares at Brewer.

12. On to the theater and into the theater this Oswald went,  at approx 1:30, without stopping by the ticket booth, causing both the ticket girl and Brewer who was still observing him to become suspicious.

13. Butch Burroughs thought he saw some Oswald or clone Oswald buy popcorn at around 1:07. Jack Davis thought he saw an Oswald sit near him about 1:20, then get up and move around several times to different seats. 

14. The late arriving Oswald (1:30) apparently never made contact with the earlier Oswald who bought the popcorn at 1:07, or sat next to the Oswald that Jack Davis saw at 1:20.

15.The final theater scene is an Oswald making a big show of getting arrested, revolver in his hand and several other cops wrestling with him, and then out front of the theater entrance display in a crowd and photographed in his “struggle” of his brown shirt being pulled off.

Conclusion:

If Mr Fords new idea is correct that Oswald was still in Dealey Plaza at 12:40 , given that the man in the “M”   film DOES SEEM to be coincidentally a figure resembling Oswald, then 15 examples indicating a pattern to draw attention unnecessarily to oneself , might be reason to reconsider the Oswald double theory.

[Alan J. Ford]

Mr. von Pein tosses another bogus claim, akin to putting words in the wrongly-accused's mouth ---->

But whether or not Mrs. Roberts was telling the truth about the police car honking its horn outside the roominghouse has no bearing on whether she was telling the truth about seeing Oswald on 11/22, and that's because her story about seeing Oswald that day was verified by Lee Oswald himself, who told the police after his arrest that he had, indeed, gone to his Beckley room shortly after the assassination occurred.

The challenge here for all LNs is they cannot produce any actual phrase that the wrongly-accused is claimed to have said in his own voice. The reason for that is the wrongly-accused never said 99.9% of what he was claimed to have said. LNs parroting back unsubstantiated claims is Not evidence, it's bogus "evidence" amid a hastily contrived script mired in the stench of horse manure.

[Alan J. Ford]

This Oswald chose to ride in the FRONT seat so the cab driver could get a real close up of his face, as well as displaying a gold bracelet on his wrist , which theoretically should have been not that easily visible if he had on an OVERSIZE jacket = sleeves longer than necessary.

There  seems to be a pattern with this Oswald of drawing attention to himself.

1. He bangs on the doors of McWaters bus and he sits for only a couple of minutes and then wants a transfer ticket from McWaters AS he is also interrupting other passenger trying to get ON the bus.

2. He decides to take Whaleys Taxi just AS another woman is about to get the taxi and makes a point of demonstrating himself rather than just stopping himself When he saw the woman. Instead he made a point of “competing”with woman by engaging in unnecessary conversation of asking her if she wanted the cab, then offering it to her.

3. In addition to the Front seat ride, this Oswald person further gave the cab driver an easy reason to recall him by NOT showing any interest in the event that the REST of the WORLD was fixated upon: The assassination of the POTUS. This Oswald remained silent as he sat right next to the cab driver Whaley , even after Whaley asked him about the event.

4. This Oswald person then made  it easy for the boarding room lady Earlene Roberts to be wondering about his behavior by showing NO INTEREST in the reports  of the national emergency event that Roberts herself was watching on the TV .

5. This Oswald then left and took some kind of walking stroll somewhere that did something to attract the attention of DPD officer Tippet just passing by 10th and Patton, enough to cause the cop to slow down and follow him for a while.

6. Then there was the dramatic 4 shots fired by this Oswald at Tippet, in midst of onlooking witness, the final shot being delivered to the head by walking over to the body of Tippet laying on the ground.

7. Then this Oswald did  NOT quickly leave the scene, but walked over CLOSE to Markam kind of casually, and as he took  about another minute at least to  empty revolver shells one by one, discarding them in LOS of several observers at the scene.

8. This Oswald decided then that he should draw as much attention to himself as possible by holding the pistol up  in the air as he began  a trot down the street.

9. Of all the places that this Oswald could have chosen to discard a jacket UNSEEN doing so, he instead chose  a fairly public car lot and threw  the jacket under the car . He thenwalked  out to the MAIN st after he had just gone past several people who saw him just previously with jacket on and/or  saw him throw the jacket under the car.

10. On to Brewers store, where this Oswald stops in just WHEN a police car goes by, and then he just stares at Brewer.

12. On to the theater and into the theater this Oswald went,  at approx 1:30, without stopping by the ticket booth, causing both the ticket girl and Brewer who was still observing him to become suspicious.

13. Butch Burroughs thought he saw some Oswald or clone Oswald buy popcorn at around 1:07. Jack Davis thought he saw an Oswald sit near him about 1:20, then get up and move around several times to different seats. 

14. The late arriving Oswald (1:30) apparently never made contact with the earlier Oswald who bought the popcorn at 1:07, or sat next to the Oswald that Jack Davis saw at 1:20.

15.The final theater scene is an Oswald making a big show of getting arrested, revolver in his hand and several other cops wrestling with him, and then out front of the theater entrance display in a crowd and photographed in his “struggle” of his brown shirt being pulled off.

Conclusion:

If Mr Fords new idea is correct that Oswald was still in Dealey Plaza at 12:40 , given that the man in the “M”   film DOES SEEM to be coincidentally a figure resembling Oswald, then 15 examples indicating a pattern to draw attention unnecessarily to oneself , might be reason to reconsider the Oswald double theory.

An astute observation/assessment, Mr. Mason, so encouraging to read your thoughts, and ditto @ Mr. Weidmann (sp?), Mr. Iacoletti and Mr. Cakebread as well.

LNs will never be able to share an iota of proof what the wrongly-accused is claimed to have said. It's so much easier for them to simply fall in line and parrot back a hastily contrived script of phantom "evidence" mired in the stench of horse manure to frame an innocent party.