Question on “Inside the Target Car” test results

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Marjan, thanks for detailing your thoughts, it helped me understand your hypothesis. It is a little more complex than I have heard before, so I would need to think about that more. I suppose here I can respond to a couple of questions and limitations.

You made the statement “u are today saying that CE567 was probably from the headshot at Z313, & that CE567 after outshoot made the dent”.
Yes, that is my current thinking on that. It is a simpler scenario than what you propose, but being simple doesn’t necessarily make it right.

If I could help you with chrome dent testing I would, but I don’t have the hardware capabilities or resources to conduct testing on windshields/chrome.

The best I can do here is say that the scenario I currently use is based on the data that nearly 50% of the bullet that CE567 came from, apparently was never recovered. It appears that a large fragment escaped the limo, likely heading in the direction of Tague. If CE567 hit the chrome, then it also missed exiting the limo by just an inch or two.

As I mentioned, I can’t do much experimentation regarding this aspect, but L. Haag did. Some experimentation done by L. Haag would support the CE567 chrome effect and the missing fragment Tague possibility. Haag conducted some experiments which suggested large bullet fragments from a skull shot could be deflected upward (hence escape the limo).

 I did do a quick look analysis on if such an escaping fragment could reach the curb by Tague, and a little to my surprise, it appeared that it could.

The following is a quote by Haag which describes his testing.
He describes the testing as “A section of fresh bovine scapula 5 to 6mm thick (0.20 to 0.24-in.) was mounted against 10%w/w ordnance gelatin at an angle to represent the non-orthogonal intercept angle of the shot into the back of the President’s head. A second piece of scapula bone was positioned on the opposite side of the small gelatin block as shown in this figure. A shot fired into this target arrangement with a WCC bullet launched from one of the author’s M91/38 Carcano rifles secured in a machine rest exited in multiple fragments as recorded on a cardboard witness panel located approximately 3-feet downrange of the target… It is interesting to note that the majority of the bullet fragments were dispersed upward relative to these bullets’ pre-impact flight paths. This strongly suggests that this upward deflection was initiated very early during these bullets’ interaction with the first layer of bone.”

This is all I can provide related to actual ballistic testing. The Tague curb thing was a mathematical model.

As far as the chrome dent or other limo damage goes, the only thing I could do for you along those lines is to follow up with a gentleman I met in a bowling league recently. He said his late dad had worked for Hess & Eisenhardt here in Cincinnati, and his dad saw the limo after it was returned to them after the assassination. I can ask him if he is aware of any comments that were passed down to the family related to the chrome dent or any other limo damage.

Yes, ask him if anyone at H&E had any ideas re the dent in the chrome trim.
And ask him if his dad was the worker who photographed the hole in the floor pan between the jump  seats, the keyhole shaped hole being made by the main body of the slug from the ricochet at Z103.

I describe the pattern of Hickey's auto burst in my threads, if u search.

Olivier fired a Carcano through 10 skulls filled with gelatine. He got almost zero fragmentation. And all of his shots were too low, & went through the hard part of the skulls at eye/nose.

The problem with the AR15 (correct) theory is that the (smallish remnant of the) hollowpoint slug at Z313 had to veer about 6 deg in JFK's head to then crack the windshield. 6 deg is easyish for a FMJ, but a big ask for a hollowpoint, especially in only say 7 inches of skull/brain. But (similarly to Haag's FMJ tests) it is known that the AR15 hollowpoint veers a lot if it firstly hits an angled hard surface, which it of course did (JFK's skull on an angle)(but no such AR15 tests were done on a skull as far as i know).

U might know. I karnt find the witness panel results for a Carcano FMJ ricochets off pipe. I remember that the finer lead splatter had a small deflexion angle (hit JFK in back right of head at Z103), & the main remnant lead slug had a wider angle (& put a hole in the floor of the limo), & the 2 half jackets (there are allways 2 halves) took the widest angle (i think) but did not damage anything or hit anyone.

The main argument anti the AR15 making the dent in the chrome has been that at 3200 fps the 50 grain hollowpoint would make a hole not a dent.  But, i reckon that a hard stainless steel trim with a crease at mid height & with an air gap on very solid mild steel rectangular tube would not yield a hole. 

[Brian Roselle]

Yes, ask him if anyone at H&E had any ideas re the dent in the chrome trim.
And ask him if his dad was the worker who photographed the hole in the floor pan between the jump  seats, the keyhole shaped hole being made by the main body of the slug from the ricochet at Z103.

I describe the pattern of Hickey's auto burst in my threads, if u search.

Olivier fired a Carcano through 10 skulls filled with gelatine. He got almost zero fragmentation. And all of his shots were too low, & went through the hard part of the skulls at eye/nose.

The problem with the AR15 (correct) theory is that the hollowpoint slug at Z313 had to veer about 6 deg in JFK's head to then crack the windshield. 6 deg is easyish for a FMJ, but a big ask for a hollowpoint, especially in only say 7 inches of skull/brain. But (similarly to Haag's FMJ tests) it is known that the AR15 hollowpoint veers a lot if it firstly hits an angled hard surface, which it of course did (JFK's skull on an angle)(but no such AR15 tests were done on a skull as far as i know).

U might know. I karnt find the witness panel results for a Carcano FMJ ricochets off pipe. I remember that the finer lead splatter had a small deflexion angle (hit JFK in back right of head at Z103), & the main remnant lead slug had a wider angle (& put a hole in the floor of the limo), & the 2 half jackets (there are allways 2 halves) took the widest angle (i think) but did not damage anything or hit anyone.

The main argument anti the AR15 making the dent in the chrome has been that at 3200 fps the 50 grain hollowpoint would make a hole not a dent.  But, i reckon that a hard stainless steel trim with a crease at mid height & with an air gap on very solid mild steel rectangular tube would not yield a hole. 

OK, I’ll try to reconnect with the gentleman, and inquire about what he may have heard from his dad about the limo.

If you have a reference to that picture of a bullet hole through the Presidential limo floorboard, direct me to that, I will print it out and share that, and see what he has to say.

In Olivier’s experiments, maybe not all bullets fragmented for him, but it seems enough may have to influence his conclusions in his WC testimony.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, let’s see. We found that this bullet could do exactly - could make the type of wound that the President received. Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car. This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.

[Charles Collins]

OK, I’ll try to reconnect with the gentleman, and inquire about what he may have heard from his dad about the limo.

If you have a reference to that picture of a bullet hole through the Presidential limo floorboard, direct me to that, I will print it out and share that, and see what he has to say.

In Olivier’s experiments, maybe not all bullets fragmented for him, but it seems enough may have to influence his conclusions in his WC testimony.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, let’s see. We found that this bullet could do exactly - could make the type of wound that the President received. Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car. This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.

Hi Brian, if you do succeed in reconnecting with the gentleman whose father worked at H&E, please ask him if he knows whether or not there are any dimensioned plans associated with the construction or reconstruction of the limo. Some of us, Jerry Organ, James Hackerott, and myself have 3-D computer models and have been working from photos, etc trying to determine some of the dimensions, etc. Thanks!   

[Brian Roselle]

Hi Brian, if you do succeed in reconnecting with the gentleman whose father worked at H&E, please ask him if he knows whether or not there are any dimensioned plans associated with the construction or reconstruction of the limo. Some of us, Jerry Organ, James Hackerott, and myself have 3-D computer models and have been working from photos, etc trying to determine some of the dimensions, etc. Thanks!   

Hi Charles,  Sure I can check on that for you. I'm not sure how much he knows, but hopefully he will have some information of interest (or some good story). It would probably be next week before I could meet up with him.

[Charles Collins]

Hi Charles,  Sure I can check on that for you. I'm not sure how much he knows, but hopefully he will have some information of interest (or some good story). It would probably be next week before I could meet up with him.

Awesome Brian, thanks! By the way, the drawing that the WC and HSCA used was drawn by Ron Knowles of the White House Communications Agency. That drawing has shown itself to be inaccurate and only shows a few dimensions that apparently the investigators asked for. The drawing I am hoping we can find would be something more along the lines of a construction drawing. It would be something that the actual builders would need in order to know how to build the limo. It would have a lot of dimensions and likely some specifications shown on it. I know it is a long shot, but maybe someone kept a copy of the drawing. If so, it would be very helpful and I imagine it would be quite valuable.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

OK, I’ll try to reconnect with the gentleman, and inquire about what he may have heard from his dad about the limo.

If you have a reference to that picture of a bullet hole through the Presidential limo floorboard, direct me to that, I will print it out and share that, and see what he has to say.

In Olivier’s experiments, maybe not all bullets fragmented for him, but it seems enough may have to influence his conclusions in his WC testimony.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, let’s see. We found that this bullet could do exactly - could make the type of wound that the President received. Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car. This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.

Donahue met Olivier, & saw the 10 skulls, & was not impressed (Mortal Error). Its simple, no FMJ will fragment when going through the top part of a skull – zero – not 1 in 100 – not 1 in 1000 – Olivier's story is krapp.

Re the bullet hole photo etc – see my post – 9march2021 – Did Oswald's first shot put a hole in the floor of JFK's limo?
 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg108260.html#msg108260


Re Hickey's spray pattern – see my post – 29april2021 – Was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.32.html


Re Hickey's auto burst  timeline – see my post – 11may2021 – Bronson saw Hickey shoot JFK.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2836.24.html
So, here is my chart showing the timeline for  Hickey's 6-shot accidental auto burst.
B06A.36 & B02A.72 happen to fall on a dummy frame placed at a skip, the A denotes a dummy frame.
There were 6 dummy frames, which i called B02A B06A B08A B12A B15A & B15B. And they have been placed before frames B02 B06 B08 B12 & B15.

shot ... zapruder frame ....... Bronson frame
…….... ………… Z319 ………… ………… B09
………. ………… Z318 ………… ………… B08.84
………. ………… Z317 ………… ………… B07.68
………. ………… Z316 ………… ………… B06.52
………. ………… Z315 ………… ………… B06A.36
……... ………… Z314 ………… ………… B05.20
6.000 ………… Z313 ………… ………… B04.04
5.636 ………… Z312 ………… ………… B02.88
5.272 ………… Z311 ………… ………… B02A.72
4.908 ………… Z310 ………… ………… B01.56
4.544 ………… Z309 ………… ………… B00.40
4.180 ………… Z308 ………… ………… B-00.76
3.816 ………… Z307 ………… ………… B-01.92
3.452 ………… Z306 ………… ………… B-03.08
3.088 ………… Z305 ………… ………… B-04.24
2.724 ………… Z304 ………… ………… B-05.40
2.360 ………… Z303 ………… ………… B-06.56
1.996 ………… Z302 ………… ………… B-07.72
1.632 ………… Z301 ………… ………… B-08.88
1.268 ………… Z300 ………… ………… B-10.04
0.904 ………… Z299 ………… ………… B-11.20


Re the Z310 shot denting the chrome trim – after grazing the bottom of the limo divider (roll bar) – see my post 16jan2023 -- Was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.72.html


Re the chrome trim stopping a slug – see my post 14march2021 -- Was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.8.html


One problem re the chrome dent is whether the under-half-face of the chrome trim has enuff angle to guide the initial splatter (ie before the dent forms) directly at the rear vision mirror.
I have not seen the damage to the rear vision mirror – but i am taking the word of other members here that there was damage (a small dent i suppose)(the workers at H&E would have known)(was the rear vision mirror replaced)(i have a full list of the work in Dec1963 but am too lazy to check).
The initial splatter might have ricocheted offa the metalwork holding the visor rather than hitting the mirror directly.
In fact we dont have to fixate on the initial angle of the initial splatter -- the main splatter would easily ricochet offa the metalwork holding the visor & then impact the mirror.