Who do you believe?

[Wesley Johnson]

I already told you in the "Oswald probably did it" thread who the 4 people were who said they saw a gunman in a window.  Hint:  Worrell was not one of them.  But when the topic of Mac Wallace came up, you asked what witnesses said they saw Mac Wallace.  So it's fair to ask you then what witnesses said they saw Lee Oswald.

It's just Brennan then, right?  And that was some time later after not identifying him in the lineup, right?  Do you consider his change of heart to be reliable?  I don't.  Do you think that the details that Brennan described in great detail both in his testimony and in his book were things that he actually could or did see? I don't.  For example, how did he see a gunman in firing position for the head shot from where he was sitting and see enough of him to estimate his height, weight, and clothing?  How did he see a gunman in firing position for the head shot from the belt up?  How did he see 70-85% of the gun and not see a scope (if it was C2766)?

The people who claimed to have seen two men:

- Arnold Rowland
- Carolyn Walther
- Ruby Henderson
- Norman Similas
- Johnny Powell

Fair enough John. Did Rowland, Walther, Henderson, Similas, or Powell see this second man shooting out of a window at the president?

[Wesley Johnson]

Let's remove them from the equation. What evidence do you have to place LHO at the SE sixth floor window at the time of the assassination?

No let's not. The question is valid because you CT's are always quoting Arnold about Lee being in the second floor lunchroom and Oswald as saying he was on the first floor. So, again, who do you believe? Arnold or Oswald?

[Martin Weidmann]

No let's not. The question is valid because you CT's are always quoting Arnold about Lee being in the second floor lunchroom and Oswald as saying he was on the first floor. So, again, who do you believe? Arnold or Oswald?

Your question would possibly be valid if we had a full first hand verbatim account about what Oswald and Arnold really said. Context matters and since we only have scant second hand information to deal with, there is nothing valid about your question.

Both Oswald and Arnold could well both be correct, for one very simple reason; we know that Oswald, at some point in time, was in the 2nd floor lunchroom because Truly and Baker saw him there. However, his being there 90 seconds post shots does not preclude him being on the 1st floor earlier, to see Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD at the back, near the domino room.

So, ask questions, by all means, but provide context to them before you do.

[Wesley Johnson]

Your question would possibly be valid if we had a full first hand verbatim account about what Oswald and Arnold really said. Context matters and since we only have scant second hand information to deal with, there is nothing valid about your question.

Both Oswald and Arnold could well both be correct, for one very simple reason; we know that Oswald, at some point in time, was in the 2nd floor lunchroom because Truly and Baker saw him there. However, his being there 90 seconds post shots does not preclude him being on the 1st floor earlier, to see Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD at the back, near the domino room.

So, ask questions, by all means, but provide context to them before you do.

If it is not valid to ask then CT'ers should not cite Arnold about Lee being in the second floor lunchroom or Lee saying he was on the first floor. And given your rational: "However, his being there 90 seconds post shots does not preclude him being on the first floor earlier, to see Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD at the back, near the domino room"! If Lee stated he saw Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD on the first floor in the back near the domino room, then he surely lied. CT's should never use that argument again Martin. It is well documented that Jarman, Norman and Williams were below the SE 6th floor window on the 5th floor SE window at the time of the shooting and heard the shots. There is even a photo of them in the window seconds after the shooting. So they very well could not have gotten all the way down and out of the building and come back in at that same 90 seconds now could they? And it doesn't preclude Oswald from being on the 6th floor either, does it Martin?  Thanks for pointing that out. 

[Martin Weidmann]

If it is not valid to ask then CT'ers should not cite Arnold about Lee being in the second floor lunchroom or Lee saying he was on the first floor. And given your rational: "However, his being there 90 seconds post shots does not preclude him being on the first floor earlier, to see Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD at the back, near the domino room"! If Lee stated he saw Jarman and Norman enter the TSBD on the first floor in the back near the domino room, then he surely lied. CT's should never use that argument again Martin. It is well documented that Jarman, Norman and Williams were below the SE 6th floor window on the 5th floor SE window at the time of the shooting and heard the shots. There is even a photo of them in the window seconds after the shooting. So they very well could not have gotten all the way down and out of the building and come back in at that same 90 seconds now could they? And it doesn't preclude Oswald from being on the 6th floor either, does it Martin?  Thanks for pointing that out.

It is well documented that Jarman, Norman and Williams were below the SE 6th floor window on the 5th floor SE window at the time of the shooting and heard the shots.

True, but I was not talking about the moment of the shooting. It seems you don't know the details of this case as well as you think. Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. They took the elevator up to the 5th floor where they were joined by Williams, who had just come down from the 6th floor.

Again, context is important!

Oswald could have been in the Domino room, on the first floor, when he saw Jarman and Norman enter the building. He could then have gone up to the 2nd floor where Arnold saw him, at around 12.25 (which is what she told the FBI initially, if I remember correctly).

[Wesley Johnson]

It is well documented that Jarman, Norman and Williams were below the SE 6th floor window on the 5th floor SE window at the time of the shooting and heard the shots.

True, but I was not talking about the moment of the shooting. It seems you don't know the details of this case as well as you think. Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. They took the elevator up to the 5th floor where they were joined by Williams, who had just come down from the 6th floor.

Again, context is important!

Yes context is important and it seems you don't know as much as you think either. I was aware of their movements Martin. So, you just admitted that they were on the 5th floor below the 6th floor window and in 90 seconds they ran down or rode the elevator and went back outside and then came back inside at the back by the domino room for Oswald to see them 90 seconds after the shooting? Is that what you are saying?

[Martin Weidmann]

Yes context is important and it seems you don't know as much as you think either. I was aware of their movements Martin. So, you just admitted that they were on the 5th floor below the 6th floor window and in 90 seconds they ran down or rode the elevator and went back outside and then came back inside at the back by the domino room for Oswald to see them 90 seconds after the shooting? Is that what you are saying?

No that's not what I am saying at all. Read my post again.

[Wesley Johnson]

No that's not what I am saying at all. Read my post again.

This is what you wrote: "They took the elevator up to the 5th floor where they were joined by Williams, who had just come down from the 6th floor."

Context matters Martin. I have read the statements of Jarman, Norman, and Williams. You made the statement, so were they on the 5th floor or not? If they were then they would not have had time to get all the way back down, outside, and come back in the back by the domino room for Oswald to see them 90 seconds later. Here is what you also wrote: " Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. "

I am not disputing that they could have been seen by someone when they came in Martin, I am disputing it was Oswald and I am basing that on "your context". Are you saying that they were not on the 5th floor at the time of the shooting? You seem to have a timing issue here Martin.