Who do you believe?

[Wesley Johnson]

No that's not what I am saying at all. Read my post again.

This is what you wrote: "They took the elevator up to the 5th floor where they were joined by Williams, who had just come down from the 6th floor."

Context matters Martin. I have read the statements of Jarman, Norman, and Williams. You made the statement, so were they on the 5th floor or not? If they were then they would not have had time to get all the way back down, outside, and come back in the back by the domino room for Oswald to see them 90 seconds later. Here is what you also wrote: " Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. "

I am not disputing that they could have been seen by someone when they came in Martin, I am disputing it was Oswald and I am basing that on "your context". Are you saying that they were not on the 5th floor at the time of the shooting? You seem to have a timing issue here Martin.   

[Martin Weidmann]

This is what you wrote: "They took the elevator up to the 5th floor where they were joined by Williams, who had just come down from the 6th floor."

Context matters Martin. I have read the statements of Jarman, Norman, and Williams. You made the statement, so were they on the 5th floor or not? If they were then they would not have had time to get all the way back down, outside, and come back in the back by the domino room for Oswald to see them 90 seconds later. Here is what you also wrote: " Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. "

I am not disputing that they could have been seen by someone when they came in Martin, I am disputing it was Oswald and I am basing that on "your context". Are you saying that they were not on the 5th floor at the time of the shooting? You seem to have a timing issue here Martin.   

Read again;

Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. "

The only one talking about 90 seconds post shots is you.

You wanted to know who to believe; Oswald (saying he was on the 1st floor) or Arnold (saying she believed she saw him on the 2nd floor at 12.25 pm). I have given you a scenario where both Oswald and Arnold can be believed. It seems that's not the answer you wanted to get.

[Colin Crow]

Read again;

Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. "

The only one talking about 90 seconds post shots is you.

You wanted to know who to believe; Oswald (saying he was on the 1st floor) or Arnold (saying she believed she saw him on the 2nd floor at 1.25 pm). I have given you a scenario where both Oswald and Arnold can be believed. It seems that's not the answer you wanted to get.

They likely left the front of the TSBD closer to 12.25.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,162.0.html

[Martin Weidmann]

They likely left the front of the TSBD closer to 12.25.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,162.0.html

Works for me, Colin... I was writing from memory.

I just noticed I got the Arnold time wrong by one hour as well....Imagine her seeing him one hour after the shooting. Anyway, it's corrected now.

[Colin Crow]

Works for me, Colin... I was writing from memory.

I just noticed I got the Arnold time wrong by one hour as well....Imagine her seeing him one hour after the shooting. Anyway, it's corrected now.

No worries Martin.....the WR report got the time wrong by much later I think.....but then memory can be a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'.

[Wesley Johnson]

Read again;

Jarman and Norman were actually outside the building to watch the motorcade pass by. Some ten minutes before the cars arrived they decided that they would get a better view from the 5th floor, so they went along Houston street to the back of the building and entered the shipping department, where they could have been observed by somebody in the Domino room. "

The only one talking about 90 seconds post shots is you.

You wanted to know who to believe; Oswald (saying he was on the 1st floor) or Arnold (saying she believed she saw him on the 2nd floor at 12.25 pm). I have given you a scenario where both Oswald and Arnold can be believed. It seems that's not the answer you wanted to get.

Martin I simply asked who you believe Oswald or Arnold. You are the one who originally put the 90 seconds in. I understand that you are trying to say that Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman coming in 10 minutes before. But that is not supported by anyone. Oswald claimed he had lunch on the first floor and told Capt. Fritz that. Depending on who you talk to on here you might get variations of his exact wording, whether he said, "I had lunch with Junior, Jarman, a black guy, a black man, a black, whatever", he told Fritz he had lunch on the first floor and no one else supports that. Now let's look at Arnold's statements in a contextual way  , In 1978, fifteen years after the assassination Carolyn Arnold told the Dallas Morning News that around 12:25 pm she saw Oswald sitting having his lunch in the second floor lunchroom. In the same month she told author Anthony Summers that "she went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment and she saw Oswald there, alone and having lunch", Instead of 12:25 pm that she told Dallas Morning News, she told Summers she saw Oswald, "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination about 12:15 pm, it may have been a little later" Why in a month period fifteen years after does she give the News a 12:30 pm time and then give Summers a 12:15 pm or later time? Doesn't sound like a very convincing witness to me. Why did she give the FBI four days after the statement that she saw Oswald a few minutes before 12:15 and not in the lunchroom? She contends the FBI mis quoted her, but on March 18, 1964 she gave the FBI a signed statement that "I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time the president was shot". A very weak witness that is disputed by several others witnesses including Pauline Sanders. 

[Wesley Johnson]

One doesn't exclude the other. Arnold said that she saw LHO at 12:25 p.m. and LHO said that he was on the first floor at 12:30 p.m. at the time of the assassination. It doesn't take more than 5 minutes to go down one flight of stairs.

Now, cite your evidence for showing that LHO was on the sixth floor as the WC claimed.

No, You CT'ers are always claiming one or the other. Now did Oswald have lunch in the second floor lunchroom or on the first floor? I'll give you the same response I gave Martin: I understand that you are trying to say that Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman coming in 10 minutes before. But that is not supported by anyone. Oswald claimed he had lunch on the first floor and told Capt. Fritz that. Depending on who you talk to on here you might get variations of his exact wording, whether he said, "I had lunch with Junior, Jarman, a black guy, a black man, a black, whatever", he told Fritz he had lunch on the first floor and no one else supports that. Now let's look at Arnold's statements in a contextual way  , In 1978, fifteen years after the assassination Carolyn Arnold told the Dallas Morning News that around 12:25 pm she saw Oswald sitting having his lunch in the second floor lunchroom. In the same month she told author Anthony Summers that "she went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment and she saw Oswald there, alone and having lunch", Instead of 12:25 pm that she told Dallas Morning News, she told Summers she saw Oswald, "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination about 12:15 pm, it may have been a little later" Why in a month period fifteen years after does she give the News a 12:30 pm time and then give Summers a 12:15 pm or later time? Doesn't sound like a very convincing witness to me. Why did she give the FBI four days after the statement that she saw Oswald a few minutes before 12:15 and not in the lunchroom? She contends the FBI mis quoted her, but on March 18, 1964 she gave the FBI a signed statement that "I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time the president was shot". A very weak witness that is disputed by several others witnesses including Pauline Sanders.

[Martin Weidmann]

Martin I simply asked who you believe Oswald or Arnold. You are the one who originally put the 90 seconds in. I understand that you are trying to say that Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman coming in 10 minutes before. But that is not supported by anyone. Oswald claimed he had lunch on the first floor and told Capt. Fritz that. Depending on who you talk to on here you might get variations of his exact wording, whether he said, "I had lunch with Junior, Jarman, a black guy, a black man, a black, whatever", he told Fritz he had lunch on the first floor and no one else supports that. Now let's look at Arnold's statements in a contextual way  , In 1978, fifteen years after the assassination Carolyn Arnold told the Dallas Morning News that around 12:25 pm she saw Oswald sitting having his lunch in the second floor lunchroom. In the same month she told author Anthony Summers that "she went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment and she saw Oswald there, alone and having lunch", Instead of 12:25 pm that she told Dallas Morning News, she told Summers she saw Oswald, "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination about 12:15 pm, it may have been a little later" Why in a month period fifteen years after does she give the News a 12:30 pm time and then give Summers a 12:15 pm or later time? Doesn't sound like a very convincing witness to me. Why did she give the FBI four days after the statement that she saw Oswald a few minutes before 12:15 and not in the lunchroom? She contends the FBI mis quoted her, but on March 18, 1964 she gave the FBI a signed statement that "I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time the president was shot". A very weak witness that is disputed by several others witnesses including Pauline Sanders.

You are the one who originally put the 90 seconds in.

Yes, but only because the Truly/Baker meeting confirms that Oswald was on the 2nd floor at that time. Arnold said she saw him on the same floor a few minutes earlier

I understand that you are trying to say that Oswald could have seen Jarman and Norman coming in 10 minutes before.

I'm not trying. I said it.

that is not supported by anyone.

And Oswald at the 6th floor window is not supported by anyone either, yet you believe Brennan.

Oswald claimed he had lunch on the first floor and told Capt. Fritz that. Depending on who you talk to on here you might get variations of his exact wording, whether he said, "I had lunch with Junior, Jarman, a black guy, a black man, a black, whatever", he told Fritz he had lunch on the first floor and no one else supports that.

The problem is that we don't know what Oswald really said. There are only conflicting third party accounts. So, let's not assume to know what Oswald really said and then proceed to call it a lie, shall we?


D, In 1978, fifteen years after the assassination Carolyn Arnold told the Dallas Morning News that around 12:25 pm she saw Oswald sitting having his lunch in the second floor lunchroom. In the same month she told author Anthony Summers that "she went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment and she saw Oswald there, alone and having lunch", Instead of 12:25 pm that she told Dallas Morning News, she told Summers she saw Oswald, "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination about 12:15 pm, it may have been a little later" Why in a month period fifteen years after does she give the News a 12:30 pm time and then give Summers a 12:15 pm or later time?

It seems to me that all you've got it third party information and nothing from Arnold directly. Regardless of the minor time differences, her story is still the same; she saw Oswald on the second floor just minutes prior to the shooting.

Doesn't sound like a very convincing witness to me.

No surprise there. Why deal with the elephant in the room that is her seeing Oswald when you can concentrate on minor differences in times which she may or may not have given herself?

Why did she give the FBI four days after the statement that she saw Oswald a few minutes before 12:15 and not in the lunchroom?

Again, you reply on what an FBI agent wrote in a report that she never saw or signed. How do you know for sure this is exactly what she told the agent?

She contends the FBI mis quoted her,

So Arnold herself says the FBI misquoted her, yet you go with what the FBI report says anyway.

but on March 18, 1964 she gave the FBI a signed statement that "I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time the president was shot".

This is just about the weakest argument you can make.... In March 64 the FBI was instructed to ask all TSBD employees if they had seen Oswald at the time the President was shot and of course nobody, including Arnold did. But that does not make her statement about seeing him a few minutes earlier any less truthful

A very weak witness that is disputed by several others witnesses including Pauline Sanders.

Pauline Sanders never disputed that Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald. Sanders claimed that she left the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12.20. If Oswald came up from the 1st floor at around 12.25 and Arnold saw him on the 2nd floor shortly after that, Sanders wouldn't have been able to see either or even know about it as she was already out of the building by then.

You need to do better to make a convincing case.