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Author Topic: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?  (Read 43665 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #304 on: September 24, 2023, 01:04:37 PM »
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Latona tells us WTF happened:


Mr. LATONA.  …After that had been determined, I then proceeded to completely process the entire rifle, to see if there were any other prints of any significance or value any prints of value--I would not know what the significance would be, but to see if there were any other prints. I completely covered the rifle. I also had a firearms man----
Representative BOGGS. What do you cover it with?
Mr. LATONA. Gray fingerprint powder.
Representative BOGGS. What is that powder?
Mr. LATONA. It is usually a combination of chalk and mercury, or possibly white lead and a little bit of resin material to give it some weight.
Mr. EISENBERG. And you testified earlier that that adheres----
Mr. LATONA. To the moisture that was left by the finger, the fingers or the hands, when it came in contact with the surface.

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Mr. LATONA. This particular weapon here, first of all, in my opinion, the metal is very poorly finished. It is absorbent. Believe it or not, there is a certain amount of absorption into this metal itself. It is not finished in the sense that it is highly polished.
Representative BOGGS. So this would be conducive to getting a good print, or would it?
Mr. LATONA. It would not.
Representative BOGGS. I see---because it would absorb the moisture.
Mr. LATONA. That's right.

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Mr. EISENBERG. …Mr. Latona, you were saying that you had worked over that rifle by applying a gray powder to it. Did you develop any fingerprints?
Mr. LATONA. I was not successful in developing any prints at all on the weapon. I also had one of the firearms examiners dismantle the weapon and I processed the complete weapon, all parts, everything else. And no latent prints of value were developed.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include the clip?
Mr. LATONA. That included the clip, that included the bolt, it included the underside of the barrel which is covered by the stock.

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Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a small white card marked with certain initials and with a date, "11-22-63." There is a cellophane wrapping, cellophane tape across this card with what appears to be a fingerprint underneath it, and the handwriting underneath that tape is "off underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766," which I might remark parenthetically is the serial number of Exhibit 139. I ask you whether you are familiar with this item which I hand you, this card?
Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am familiar with this particular exhibit.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us what that exhibit consists of, that item rather?
Mr. LATONA. This exhibit Or this item is a lift of a latent palmprint which was evidently developed with black powder.
Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you receive this item?
Mr. LATONA. I received this item November 29, 1963.

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Mr. EISENBERG. Did you succeed in making identification?
Mr. LATONA. On the basis of my comparison, I did effect an identification.
Mr. EISENBERG. And whose print was that, Mr. Latona?
Mr. LATONA. The palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by me as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, as I understand it, on November 23, therefore, the FBI had not succeeded in making an identification of a fingerprint or palmprint on the rifle, but several days later by virtue of the receipt of this lift, which did not come with the weapon originally, the FBI did succeed in identifying a print on Exhibit 139?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Which may explain any inconsistent or apparently inconsistent statements, which I believe appeared in the press, as to an identification?
Mr. LATONA. We had no personal knowledge of any palmprint having been developed on the rifle. The only prints that we knew of were the fragmentary prints which I previously pointed out had been indicated by the cellophane on the trigger guard. There was no indication on this rifle as to the existence of any other prints. This print which indicates it came from the underside of the gun barrel, evidently the lifting had been so complete that there was nothing left to show any marking on the gun itself as to the existence of such even an attempt on the part of anyone else to process the rifle.
Mr. DULLES. Do I understand then that if there is a lifting of this kind, that it may obliterate----
Mr. LATONA. Completely.
Mr. DULLES. The original print?
Mr. LATONA. That is right.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that you personally, Mr. Latona, did not know anything about a print being on the rifle which was identifiable until you received, actually received the lift, Exhibit 637?
Mr. LATONA. On the 29th of November.



Here is a theory that makes sense to me:

It appears to me that Latona (with no cellophane or any other indication that there was any kind of print, or remnants of a print, underneath the wood of the fore stock) did not see the faint remnants that Day said were left on the barrel. And Latona subsequently covered the entire gun with gray powder. The remnants that Day indicated was still on the underside of the barrel lacked enough moisture (due to the black powder’s absorbency) to adhere to the gray powder. And therefore no useable print was developed.

I believe that Day did nothing wrong except verbally relying on Drain to notify the FBI lab about the palm print (I believe that he should have documented it in writing or indicated it in some way on the rifle). The DPD had jurisdiction of the case on 11/22/63, the FBI did not have jurisdiction. Unless Day had been specifically instructed to turn over the palm print lift (he said he had not), Under the circumstances, I think it would have been wrong for Day to turn over any evidence that he had not specifically been instructed to turn over.

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #304 on: September 24, 2023, 01:04:37 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #305 on: September 24, 2023, 01:15:14 PM »
Hardly relevant questions.

On September 1, 1964 the WC requested "certain investigation into the circumstances under which Lieutenant J.C. Day of the Dallas Police Department processed the assassination rifle for latent fingerprints and palm prints........"

Day, however, refused to cooperate, by stating that he preferred to let the written (internal DPD) report speak for itself and "would rather elaborate orally on the lifting of the palm print <...> rather than to make a written signed statement".

Statements like that are normally made in a affidavit in front of a notary, but even if he wasn't asked to sign an affidavit, why would Day decline to make "a written signed statement"?

He preferred to let his earlier written signed statement stand instead of repeating it. That is not the same as declining to make a written signed statement.

The questions I asked are relevant because you claimed he was asked to sign an affidavit.

Why did Day refuse to sign an affidavit regarding the handling of the print when asked to do so by the WC

Care to back up your claim?

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #306 on: September 24, 2023, 01:41:36 PM »
Dan, see CE 2637. Hoover’s letter gives no indication of how this was done, or by whom, or if they had even talked to Day about what specific location he had taken his lift from. Why would the WC not speak to the person who actually did the work?

Not only that, this letter in no way explains the contradiction between the testimonies of Day and Latona.
It appears to be an unofficial "explanation" but it doesn't deal with the issue under question - why did the visible print Day insisted was on the rifle disappear by the time it reached Latona a few hours later?
In the debate so far no-one has even attempted to offer a credible explanation as to how this could have happened.
The suggestion that Latona just missed it is untenable.

Another point that is constantly "misunderstood" is that Day had the lift of the palm print to compare to the prints taken from Oswald earlier that day. Saying that Day had to stop processing the rifle doesn't mean anything - he had the two prints for comparison. He didn't need the rifle.

On 8/28/64 Wesley Leibeler wrote a memo to Rankin in which he reveals very serious misgivings concerning Day's testimony regarding the palm print. It may have been this that spurred Rankin on to get some answers from Hoover. However, none of the issues raised in this memo are dealt with in the Hoover letter:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wx4RencS6t5BBFjK2F3ocXEwz3IHBsMJ/view


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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #306 on: September 24, 2023, 01:41:36 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #307 on: September 24, 2023, 01:48:11 PM »
He preferred to let his earlier written signed statement stand instead of repeating it.

Nope--------he acknowledged (as he must) that the earlier written report was not the last word on the matter, but would require 'elaborat[ion]'. This elaboration he was not prepared to commit to writing

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #308 on: September 24, 2023, 02:03:11 PM »
That Day's account of the palm print lift as viewed as 'suspect' is revealed in this memo:

"Mr Rankin advised because of the circumstances that now exist there was a serious question in the minds of the Commission as to whether or not the palm impression that had been obtained by the Dallas Police Department is a legitimate latent print..."


It is interesting that this aspect case raised a "serious question in the minds of the Commission" but seems to be a non-issue in the minds of LNers.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/N%20Disk/National%20Enquirer%20FBI%20Records%20From%201-8-78%20Releases/Item%2039.pdf
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 02:04:19 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #308 on: September 24, 2023, 02:03:11 PM »


Offline Chris Register

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #309 on: September 24, 2023, 02:13:56 PM »
How did a post about Landis finding an intact bullet get highjacked and turned into a discussion about Lt. Day and a palm print? Sounds like some just have to morph any interesting topic into their pet topic, and then beat their dead horse ad nauseum. I for one am interested in new evidence or testimony. As stated earlier, this Landis scenario has NEVER even been suggested in 60 years. It’s not as crazy as “Hickey fired the fatal shot”, so what can’t it be discussed intelligently like the ID of Mumford?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #310 on: September 24, 2023, 02:18:18 PM »
How did a post about Landis finding an intact bullet get highjacked and turned into a discussion about Lt. Day and a palm print? Sounds like some just have to morph any interesting topic into their pet topic, and then beat their dead horse ad nauseum. I for one am interested in new evidence or testimony. As stated earlier, this Landis scenario has NEVER even been suggested in 60 years. It’s not as crazy as “Hickey fired the fatal shot”, so what can’t it be discussed intelligently like the ID of Mumford?

The Landis matter has been discussed. There's only so much to say about a topic like that. There isn't much point in going round and round in circles with the same speculation.

Threads hardly ever stay on topic and you didn't do much to keep on topic, did you now?

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #311 on: September 24, 2023, 02:30:25 PM »
How did a post about Landis finding an intact bullet get highjacked and turned into a discussion about Lt. Day and a palm print? Sounds like some just have to morph any interesting topic into their pet topic, and then beat their dead horse ad nauseum. I for one am interested in new evidence or testimony. As stated earlier, this Landis scenario has NEVER even been suggested in 60 years. It’s not as crazy as “Hickey fired the fatal shot”, so what can’t it be discussed intelligently like the ID of Mumford?

A new book is coming out and an incredible 'revelation' accompanies it.
I think a lot of people have switched off due to that.

I'd like to propose something that is the only 'credible' scenario I can come up with that might explain part of Landis' claim [it will never explain his actions in terms of deliberately destroying the crime scene]

SA Johnsen notes that he receives a bullet from O P Wright minutes before JFK's body is taken out of Parkland.
Wright identifies the bullet as a "hunting slug" with a pointed tip. [this bullet magically transforms into CE399 when it reaches the FBI lab in Washington].

Connally doesn't appear to have been moved into Trauma Room #2 for quite some time.
Tomlinson is positive the bullet with the pointed tip was not on the stretcher identified as the one Connally used.
Could it be that the stretcher/gurney in the corridor outside the elevator was the one JFK was on?
Could it be that Tomlinson's discovery was slightly later than usually thought?
What happened to JFK's gurney after he was transferred to the casket?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 02:31:59 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: RIP to the Single-bullet theory?
« Reply #311 on: September 24, 2023, 02:30:25 PM »