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Author Topic: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo  (Read 10064 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2023, 04:15:10 PM »
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    Let's refrain from the name calling and stick to FACTS. The opinion of a CIA Image Expert/Brugioni vs what is it you are proffering?

I wasn't name calling.
Anyone who believes the Zapruder film was altered is a fantasist.
Against Brugioni's memory - Roland Zavada.
Zavada was one of the leaders of the team that invented Kodachrome II, the same film as Zapruder's.
Zavada, described as  "world's leading expert on 8mm Kodachrome II film" [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/21/zapruder-film-analysis-still-disputed/3672031/], undertook a massively comprehensive examination of the Zapruder film and compiled a 150 pg report -https://archive.org/details/ZavadaReport/page/n21/mode/2up

He concluded that the Zapruder film was an "in camera original" and that any alleged alteration was unfeasible.
The Zavada Report ends any speculation about the Z-film being altered.

It is also possible to use your brain and a modern copy of the Z-film. Look at the gif below and explain to me where this alteration could've occurred. Jackie's movements are fluid and seamless and any alteration would have to take into account the arrival of Hill in the same clip:



If that's not good enough, here are the Zapruder and Nix films synchronised. Once you start claiming the Nix film has also been altered you have entered tinfoil territory:



The Zavada Report, the Nix/Zapruder films synchronised and a bit of common sense debunk any claims to alteration.


« Last Edit: October 15, 2023, 10:07:19 PM by Dan O'meara »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2023, 04:15:10 PM »


Offline Michael Welch

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2023, 09:33:44 PM »
I wasn't name calling.
Anyone who believes the Zapruder film was altered is a fantasist.
Against Brugioni's memory - Roland Zavada.
Zavada was one of the leaders of the team that invented Kodachrome II, the same film as Zapruder's.
Zavada, described as  "world's leading expert on 8mm Kodachrome II film" [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/21/zapruder-film-analysis-still-disputed/3672031/], undertook a massively comprehensive examination of the Zapruder film and compiled a 150 pg report [https://archive.org/stream/ZavadaReport/Zavada+Report_djvu.txt]

He concluded that the Zapruder film was an "in camera original" and that any alleged alteration was unfeasible.
The Zavada Report ends any speculation about the Z-film being altered.

It is also possible to use your brain and a modern copy of the Z-film. Look at the gif below and explain to me where this alteration could've occurred. Jackie's movements are fluid and seamless and any alteration would have to take into account the arrival of Hill in the same clip:



If that's not good enough, here are the Zapruder and Nix films synchronised. Once you start claiming the Nix film has also been altered you have entered tinfoil territory:



The Zavada Report, the Nix/Zapruder films synchronised and a bit of common sense debunk any claims to alteration.

Hi Dan, Ironically, the great Gerda Dunckel did a gif of Clint Hill getting on the back of the limousine and the Zapruder film is missing a few frames. Both Mr. Zapruder and Mr. Nix felt that frames were missing from their films. Also we know that at least seven frames are missing from the Tina Towner film based on the great work done by Chris Davidson! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Here is what Abraham Zapruder said about his film when asked at the Clay Shaw Trial.22                    At this time we offer into evidence that

23                    which we previously marked for

24                    identification as S-37, the film

25                    testified to by Mr. Zapruder.

Page 86

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      At this time we would like to traverse on

3                      the offer.

4          THE COURT:

5                      You may traverse.

6          BY MR. DYMOND:

7          Q            You say you were present when the copies of

8                      your film were made?

9          A            Yes, sir.

10        Q            Were you actually present in the room in which

11                    these copies were being made?

12        A            Yes, sir, I was in the processing room watching

13                    them actually process the film.

14        Q            Is the copy you have here today identical to

15                    the original or are there any plates

16                    missing out of this copy?

17        A            That would be hard for me to tell, sir.

18        THE COURT:

19                    I cannot hear the witness.  What is it?

20        THE WITNESS:

21                    That would be hard for me to say.  He

22                    asked me if there are any frames

23                   
missing.

24        THE COURT:

25                    What is your answer?

Page 87

1          THE WITNESS:

2                      I couldn’t say.

3          BY MR. DYMOND:

4          Q            So you don’t know whether it is a complete copy

5                      of the film you took on the 22nd of
6                      November?


7          A            Not if there are one or two frames missing, I

8                      couldn’t tell you.

9          Q            Mr. Zapruder, when these copies were made, do

10                    I understand you ended up with an original

11                    and two copies of the film?

12        A            Yes, sir.

13        Q            You gave one copy to the Dallas Police

14                    Intelligence Section, is that correct?

15        A            Yes, sir.

16        Q            One copy to the FBI?

17        A            Correct.

18        Q            And one copy to Life Magazine?

19        A            Yes, sir.

20        Q            Where did you get this copy you have produced

21                    here in open court today, if you disposed of

22                    all the copies?

23        A            I got them from Mr. Oser’s office.

24        Q            In other words, this film has not been in your

25                    possession up until now, is that correct?

Page 88

1          A            No.  It was given to me in his office.

In this Orville Nix interview, around the 1:40 mark he starts talking about missing frames.


I believe this is Chris Davidson's work showing the seven miising frames in the Tina Towner film.


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2023, 10:47:00 PM »
Hi Dan, Ironically, the great Gerda Dunckel did a gif of Clint Hill getting on the back of the limousine and the Zapruder film is missing a few frames. Both Mr. Zapruder and Mr. Nix felt that frames were missing from their films. Also we know that at least seven frames are missing from the Tina Towner film based on the great work done by Chris Davidson! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

Here is what Abraham Zapruder said about his film when asked at the Clay Shaw Trial.22                    At this time we offer into evidence that

23                    which we previously marked for

24                    identification as S-37, the film

25                    testified to by Mr. Zapruder.

Page 86

1          MR. DYMOND:

2                      At this time we would like to traverse on

3                      the offer.

4          THE COURT:

5                      You may traverse.

6          BY MR. DYMOND:

7          Q            You say you were present when the copies of

8                      your film were made?

9          A            Yes, sir.

10        Q            Were you actually present in the room in which

11                    these copies were being made?

12        A            Yes, sir, I was in the processing room watching

13                    them actually process the film.

14        Q            Is the copy you have here today identical to

15                    the original or are there any plates

16                    missing out of this copy?

17        A            That would be hard for me to tell, sir.

18        THE COURT:

19                    I cannot hear the witness.  What is it?

20        THE WITNESS:

21                    That would be hard for me to say.  He

22                    asked me if there are any frames

23                   
missing.

24        THE COURT:

25                    What is your answer?

Page 87

1          THE WITNESS:

2                      I couldn’t say.

3          BY MR. DYMOND:

4          Q            So you don’t know whether it is a complete copy

5                      of the film you took on the 22nd of
6                      November?


7          A            Not if there are one or two frames missing, I

8                      couldn’t tell you.

9          Q            Mr. Zapruder, when these copies were made, do

10                    I understand you ended up with an original

11                    and two copies of the film?

12        A            Yes, sir.

13        Q            You gave one copy to the Dallas Police

14                    Intelligence Section, is that correct?

15        A            Yes, sir.

16        Q            One copy to the FBI?

17        A            Correct.

18        Q            And one copy to Life Magazine?

19        A            Yes, sir.

20        Q            Where did you get this copy you have produced

21                    here in open court today, if you disposed of

22                    all the copies?

23        A            I got them from Mr. Oser’s office.

24        Q            In other words, this film has not been in your

25                    possession up until now, is that correct?

Page 88

1          A            No.  It was given to me in his office.

In this Orville Nix interview, around the 1:40 mark he starts talking about missing frames.


I believe this is Chris Davidson's work showing the seven miising frames in the Tina Towner film.


Zavada examined the Zapruder original on four different occasions. He concluded it was complete, authentic and hadn't been tampered with in any way.
At no time does Zapruder hint that frames were missing.
It may be the case frames were missing from some of the many copies that were made but not the original.
The Zavada Report ends any speculation about the authenticity of the Z-film. There was no higher authority regarding Kodachrome II, the speculations of non-experts should be taken with a pinch of salt.



The synchronisation of these films demonstrates, beyond doubt, that the Z-film was not altered regarding how long Jackie was on the trunk of the limo as suggested by Royell.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2023, 10:47:00 PM »


Offline Michael Welch

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2023, 11:35:51 PM »
Zavada examined the Zapruder original on four different occasions. He concluded it was complete, authentic and hadn't been tampered with in any way.
At no time does Zapruder hint that frames were missing.
It may be the case frames were missing from some of the many copies that were made but not the original.
The Zavada Report ends any speculation about the authenticity of the Z-film. There was no higher authority regarding Kodachrome II, the speculations of non-experts should be taken with a pinch of salt.



The synchronisation of these films demonstrates, beyond doubt, that the Z-film was not altered regarding how long Jackie was on the trunk of the limo as suggested by Royell.

Hi Dan, Thank you for your input! Here are a couple more Gerda The Great gifs! Sincerely yours, Michael







« Last Edit: October 15, 2023, 11:39:38 PM by Michael Welch »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2023, 12:36:45 AM »
Hi Dan, Thank you for your input! Here are a couple more Gerda The Great gifs! Sincerely yours, Michael






This is a classic example of the sort of things "alterationists" cling on to.
Below is the frame in question - Z152
One is a Lightbox frame taken from here - https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox-frame-sets
One is a Costella frame taken from here - https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
It can be seen the "compression artifacts" apparent in the Lightbox frame are not present in the Costella frame.




The Lightbox site states the following:

The “Lightbox” frames (1280 x 720) have notable compression artifacts.

It is always preferable to use the best available frames when making any analysis of the Z-film.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2023, 12:36:45 AM »


Offline Michael Welch

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2023, 02:39:05 AM »
This is a classic example of the sort of things "alterationists" cling on to.
Below is the frame in question - Z152
One is a Lightbox frame taken from here - https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox-frame-sets
One is a Costella frame taken from here - https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
It can be seen the "compression artifacts" apparent in the Lightbox frame are not present in the Costella frame.




The Lightbox site states the following:

The “Lightbox” frames (1280 x 720) have notable compression artifacts.

It is always preferable to use the best available frames when making any analysis of the Z-film.

Hi Dan, I do not know who wrote this. I knew there were four missing frames from the Zapruder film. It looks like there are between 6 and 9. My best guess is that the 7 missing frames from the Tina Towner film took out the wide turn that SSA William Greer made by mistake. My best guess for the missing Zapruder frames is to take out the stop that SSA William Greer made that is probably best witnessed in the Marie Muchmore film. I guess you cannot see it, but in Gerda's gif of Clint Hill, the Nix film and the Zapruder film do not match! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
 Missing and Out of Sequence frames in the Zapruder Film


    I used two computer based versions of the Zapruder film to do my comparison.  The first one is "JFK Assassination, A Visual Investigation" by MacMillian Digital USA.  The Second version I used is "Image of an Assassination, A New Look at the Zapruder Film" by MPI Home Video.  Here are the results:
 
 
Visual Investigation
 New Look
1 to 154    
Same
1 to 154
155 (misnumbered)*   
Equals
157 (correct)*
156 to 157    
Equals Missing
155 to 156
158 to 207    
Same
158 to 207
208 to 211   
Both Missing
208 to 211
212* to 330   
Same
212* to 330
331 (correct)   
Equals
332 (out of sequence)
332 (correct)   
Equals
331 (out of sequence)
333 to 340   
Same
333 to 340
341 (correct)      Missing
342 to 349   
Equals
341 to 348
350 (correct)      Missing
351 to 485   
Equals
349 to 483
486 (not numbered)      Missing
   * Note 1: Frame 157 is a splice.  The top 1/3 is frame 155 and the bottom 2/3 is frame 157.
    *Note 2: Frame 212 is a splice also. The top portion is frame 208 and the bottom portion is 212.

    There are a Total of  9 frames missing  from "Image of an Assassination, A New Look at the Zapruder Film".  There are only 6 frames missing from the "JFK Assassination, A Visual Investigation" versision of the film.

    As I watched my copy of the MPI version on DVD, I noticed some white letters kept flashing on the left of the film in the sprocket hole area at regular intervals.  Upon closer examination I found that the letters spelled out "KODACHROME II" and "SAFETY FILM".  There are also a couple of numbers and symbols between these two phrases which have no meaning to me.



    I decided to find out if this message was at a regular interval such that I could determine if any additional frames were missing.  The entire message "KODACHROME II  ...  SAFETY FILM" is between 17 and 18 frames long.  The message is flashed 7 times through the Zapruder film.  The message can be seen from frames 25 to 41, 92 to 109, 157 to 173,  224 to 241, 288 to 305, 354 to 370 and 418 to 435.  The start of the message does not begin exactly in the same place each time in relation to the sprocket holes.

     My next step was to measure the distance between each repeating message.  After adding in frame 341 & 350 and assuming that 155, 156 & 208 to 211 were the only missing frames, I measured the partial distance that the message took up at the beginning and ending of the phrase.  The distance between the 1st & 2nd is 50 5/8 frames; 2nd & 3rd is 48; 3rd & 4th is 50 5/8; 4th & 5th is 47 7/8; 5th & 6th is 50 5/8; and the 6th & 7th is 48.  I believe these measurements are close enough to show a pattern: 51; 48; 51; 48; 51; 48.  If any 1 or more frames are either added or subtracted then the whole pattern is thrown off.  I believe this pattern proves the Zapruder film is "authentic" in that there are only 9 frames missing!
 




Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2023, 10:00:41 AM »
Hi Dan, I do not know who wrote this. I knew there were four missing frames from the Zapruder film. It looks like there are between 6 and 9. My best guess is that the 7 missing frames from the Tina Towner film took out the wide turn that SSA William Greer made by mistake. My best guess for the missing Zapruder frames is to take out the stop that SSA William Greer made that is probably best witnessed in the Marie Muchmore film. I guess you cannot see it, but in Gerda's gif of Clint Hill, the Nix film and the Zapruder film do not match! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
 Missing and Out of Sequence frames in the Zapruder Film


    I used two computer based versions of the Zapruder film to do my comparison.  The first one is "JFK Assassination, A Visual Investigation" by MacMillian Digital USA.  The Second version I used is "Image of an Assassination, A New Look at the Zapruder Film" by MPI Home Video.  Here are the results:
 
 
Visual Investigation
 New Look
1 to 154    
Same
1 to 154
155 (misnumbered)*   
Equals
157 (correct)*
156 to 157    
Equals Missing
155 to 156
158 to 207    
Same
158 to 207
208 to 211   
Both Missing
208 to 211
212* to 330   
Same
212* to 330
331 (correct)   
Equals
332 (out of sequence)
332 (correct)   
Equals
331 (out of sequence)
333 to 340   
Same
333 to 340
341 (correct)      Missing
342 to 349   
Equals
341 to 348
350 (correct)      Missing
351 to 485   
Equals
349 to 483
486 (not numbered)      Missing
   * Note 1: Frame 157 is a splice.  The top 1/3 is frame 155 and the bottom 2/3 is frame 157.
    *Note 2: Frame 212 is a splice also. The top portion is frame 208 and the bottom portion is 212.

    There are a Total of  9 frames missing  from "Image of an Assassination, A New Look at the Zapruder Film".  There are only 6 frames missing from the "JFK Assassination, A Visual Investigation" versision of the film.

    As I watched my copy of the MPI version on DVD, I noticed some white letters kept flashing on the left of the film in the sprocket hole area at regular intervals.  Upon closer examination I found that the letters spelled out "KODACHROME II" and "SAFETY FILM".  There are also a couple of numbers and symbols between these two phrases which have no meaning to me.



    I decided to find out if this message was at a regular interval such that I could determine if any additional frames were missing.  The entire message "KODACHROME II  ...  SAFETY FILM" is between 17 and 18 frames long.  The message is flashed 7 times through the Zapruder film.  The message can be seen from frames 25 to 41, 92 to 109, 157 to 173,  224 to 241, 288 to 305, 354 to 370 and 418 to 435.  The start of the message does not begin exactly in the same place each time in relation to the sprocket holes.

     My next step was to measure the distance between each repeating message.  After adding in frame 341 & 350 and assuming that 155, 156 & 208 to 211 were the only missing frames, I measured the partial distance that the message took up at the beginning and ending of the phrase.  The distance between the 1st & 2nd is 50 5/8 frames; 2nd & 3rd is 48; 3rd & 4th is 50 5/8; 4th & 5th is 47 7/8; 5th & 6th is 50 5/8; and the 6th & 7th is 48.  I believe these measurements are close enough to show a pattern: 51; 48; 51; 48; 51; 48.  If any 1 or more frames are either added or subtracted then the whole pattern is thrown off.  I believe this pattern proves the Zapruder film is "authentic" in that there are only 9 frames missing!
 


I knew there were four missing frames from the Zapruder film.

Which version of the Z-film?
Read the Zavada Report if you really want all your questions answered about the authenticity of the Z-film - https://archive.org/details/ZavadaReport/page/n71/mode/2up?view=theater
Otherwise it's just regurgitating the speculation of people who are non-experts in the field.
The notion that a bloc of frames were removed from the Z-film to hide the fact the limo stopped is fantasyland stuff. There is way too much movement of the occupants in the limo to hide such an effect. The problem with the Z-film is, because of the way it's filmed, it makes it very difficult to see that the limo radically slows down just before the head shot. The version of the Z-film below makes it very easy to appreciate just how much the limo slows down prior to the head shot:


Move on from any "alterationist" notions. It really is a waste of time.

Offline Michael Welch

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Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2023, 12:46:46 PM »
I knew there were four missing frames from the Zapruder film.

Which version of the Z-film?
Read the Zavada Report if you really want all your questions answered about the authenticity of the Z-film - https://archive.org/details/ZavadaReport/page/n71/mode/2up?view=theater
Otherwise it's just regurgitating the speculation of people who are non-experts in the field.
The notion that a bloc of frames were removed from the Z-film to hide the fact the limo stopped is fantasyland stuff. There is way too much movement of the occupants in the limo to hide such an effect. The problem with the Z-film is, because of the way it's filmed, it makes it very difficult to see that the limo radically slows down just before the head shot. The version of the Z-film below makes it very easy to appreciate just how much the limo slows down prior to the head shot:


Move on from any "alterationist" notions. It really is a waste of time.

Hi Dan, It is from the original. This is from Wikipedia: Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

In October 1964, the U.S. Government Printing Office released 26 volumes of testimony and evidence compiled by the Warren Commission. Volume 18 of the commission's hearings reproduced 158 frames from the Zapruder film in black and white. However, frames 208–211 were missing, a splice was visible in frames 207 and 212, frames 314 and 315 were switched around, and frame 284 was a repeat of 283.[16] In response to an inquiry, then-FBI director J. Edgar Hoover wrote in 1965 that frames 314 and 315 had been swapped due to a printing error, and that that error did not exist in the original Warren Commission exhibits. In early 1967, Life released a statement saying that four frames of the original (frames 208–211) were accidentally destroyed, and the adjacent frames damaged, by a Life photo lab technician on November 23, 1963. Life released those missing frames from the first-generation copy it had received from the film's original version;[17] the Zapruder frames outside the section used in the commission's exhibits, frames 155–157 and 341, were also damaged and were spliced out of the original rendition of the film, but are present in the first-generation copies.[18]


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: How the Landis bullet possibly ended up on top of the backseat of the limo
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2023, 12:46:46 PM »