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Author Topic: Stop With The Limo Stop  (Read 25572 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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Stop With The Limo Stop
« on: November 04, 2023, 11:11:53 AM »
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One of the many ludicrous claims made by Alteration Fantasists [Altfans] is that the Presidential limo came to a complete stop around the time of the head shot and, because the Z-film doesn't show this limo stop, it must be concluded that the film was altered. Most go a little bit further, insisting the Z-film doesn't even show the limo slowing down, let alone coming to a stop:

"...the fact that in the film (contrary to eyewitness testimony) JFK’s limousine does not stop or reduce speed during the assassination. At the time of the assassination, in the Zapruder film, JFK’s limousine glides forward at a steady (and unusually low) speed of about 11 mph; the car definitely does not stop or slow down."
                                                                                                                   ["Grassy Knoll Shots? Limousine Slowdown?",  Donald E. Wilkes Jr]

It is difficult to know what word to use to describe this claim - "Mistaken" would be kind, "Fraudulent" seems a bit harsh. Whatever the case, it's completely wrong and Wilkes Jr goes on to build his case on the back of this error. In mitigation it must be conceded that the radical deceleration of the limo shown in the Z-film isn't readily apparent. This is due to the background having few visual cues at the moment of the head shot. In the version of the Z-film below, Ant Davison has created a new way of looking at the Z-film by keeping all the visual information in place to create a backdrop against which we can clearly see the movement of the limo relative to it's surroundings.
In this version it is absolutely clear that just before the head shot the limo radically decelerates to almost walking pace:


This deceleration of the limo is an obvious fact. It is shown in the Z-film, the Nix film, the Muchmore film and the Bronson film. It is the reason the distance between the limo and the follow-up car rapidly diminishes, it is the reason the outriders suddenly catch up with the limo, it is the reason Hill can make the gap.
The likes of Wilkes and his Altfan buddies claiming the Z-film doesn't show this deceleration is a case of incredibly poor research and the arguments for alteration built on this non-observation are totally bogus.
Some of the outriders are said to have reported that the limo came to a complete stop for a brief second. The fact is that it was the outriders themselves who came to a complete stop as they suddenly caught up with the decelerating limo. This may have added to the impression that the whole motorcade had come to a brief halt and having JFK's head explode a matter of feet away may have also been distracting.

For those Altfans who believe the Z-film was altered to remove a complete limo stop, however brief, there are two seeming impossibilities:
1) The Nix, Muchmore and Bronson films must be similarly altered.
2) In all these films we see Jackie and the occupants of the limo constantly moving, Hill racing toward the limo, the outriders, the follow-up vehicle and the people stood on Elm Street watching the motorcade all moving at all times. For a limo stop to be removed all of these people must "freeze" for the amount of time removed to delete a limo stop. Everyone must stop moving at exactly the same moment and resume movement at exactly the same moment. In their childish beliefs, Altfans convince themselves it's just a matter of dealing with the movement of the limo. Everything else can be overlooked!

The limo slowed to almost walking pace. It didn't stop. And the Z-film most ceratinly wasn't altered in order to hide something that never even happened.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 11:18:12 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Stop With The Limo Stop
« on: November 04, 2023, 11:11:53 AM »


Offline Felix Tomzik

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2023, 07:15:28 PM »
If it had stopped Clint Hill would have reached the car a lot faster. It didn't happen.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2023, 11:18:20 PM »
If it had stopped Clint Hill would have reached the car a lot faster. It didn't happen.

Agreed, and it's not just Hill's movements - there are so many elements in motion in various films of the assassination that it is impossible to remove a few frames from the Z-film to "delete" a limo stop without it being obvious.
There are so many Altfans present on this forum and I know many have looked at this thread but refuse to get involved because they're a cowardly bunch who know they're wrong but refuse to accept it. They believe they are non-conformists so they choose a radical theory to believe in and they become disciples of that theory. Something very similar happened with the Prayer Man zealots. But, far from being non-conformists they swallow the so-called research of others, they do no thinking of their own, simply regurgitating what they've been spoon-fed and when it comes to the crunch they disappear.

I challenge any Altfan out there to bring your best to this thread.
I guarantee it will be crushed  Thumb1:

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2023, 11:18:20 PM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2023, 12:05:49 AM »
The speed of the jfklimo at about Z312 is not very important.
What is important is the speed of Queen Mary (the followup car) at about Z280 to Z300. Koz, when Queen Mary (ie Kinney) braked, Hickey fell forward, & he fired an accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots of his AR15. The auto burst started at say Z300 & finished at Z312. Taking into account reaction times etc, Kinney would have braked at say Z295, reacting to the jfklimo braking at say Z290.
My measurements of frames Z270 to Z308 show that the jfklimo did not alter its speed much during that period, ie there was no sudden braking at about Z290. Hence, if Queen Mary braked during that period it must have been in response to the brake lights of the jfklimo, but not to any actual braking.
The speed of the jfklimo at about Z312 is of minor interest.  It had no effect on the accidental homicide.

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2023, 12:44:08 AM »
The speed of the jfklimo at about Z312 is not very important.
What is important is the speed of Queen Mary (the followup car) at about Z280 to Z300. Koz, when Queen Mary (ie Kinney) braked, Hickey fell forward, & he fired an accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots of his AR15. The auto burst started at say Z300 & finished at Z312. Taking into account reaction times etc, Kinney would have braked at say Z295, reacting to the jfklimo braking at say Z290.
My measurements of frames Z270 to Z308 show that the jfklimo did not alter its speed much during that period, ie there was no sudden braking at about Z290. Hence, if Queen Mary braked during that period it must have been in response to the brake lights of the jfklimo, but not to any actual braking.
The speed of the jfklimo at about Z312 is of minor interest.  It had no effect on the accidental homicide.

   I'm warming to rookie SA Hickey accidentally firing the AR-15. My position unlike most is that Hickey fired the AR-15 but did Not hit JFK. That said, there was damage inflicted inside Dealey Plaza by that accidental discharge.      ------- TO BE CONTINUED -------------- 

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2023, 12:44:08 AM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2023, 01:03:44 AM »
..........................This deceleration of the limo is an obvious fact. It is shown in the Z-film, the Nix film, the Muchmore film and the Bronson film. It is the reason the distance between the limo and the follow-up car rapidly diminishes, it is the reason the outriders suddenly catch up with the limo, it is the reason Hill can make the gap........................
Where can i find footage showing that the distance between the limo & the follow-up car diminishes?
Where can i find the listed measurements?
The Nix Muchmore Bronson footages show the gap (ie the 2 limos are in the same frame) starting at almost Z312. No good to me.
Likewize any footage or photo before say Z218 is of little use to me.
The critical period is say Z280 to Z300.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2023, 01:16:19 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2023, 01:12:14 AM »
   I'm warming to rookie SA Hickey accidentally firing the AR-15. My position unlike most is that Hickey fired the AR-15 but did Not hit JFK. That said, there was damage inflicted inside Dealey Plaza by that accidental discharge.      ------- TO BE CONTINUED --------------
The damage was..........
....... At Z312 (jfk hit in  head)(remnant slug cracks windshield).
....... At Z309 (slug hits chrome trim).
....... Earlier shots hit tarmac & kerb & Tague.

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2023, 01:32:52 AM »
The damage was..........
....... At Z312 (jfk hit in  head)(remnant slug cracks windshield).
....... At Z309 (slug hits chrome trim).
....... Earlier shots hit tarmac & kerb & Tague.

   JFK's head and the tarmac are on opposite sides of Elm St. Basically, you got SA Hickey going John Rambo with the AR-15. I'm more inclined to believe he accidentally discharged the weapon in 1 Direction.

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Re: Stop With The Limo Stop
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2023, 01:32:52 AM »