When Was JBC Hit?

[John Mytton]

John is right. the only things laser-surveyed were stationary buildings, structures, streets and objects as they exist today.



The positioning of the limousine, the two men and the Stemmons sign were entirely subjective. The absurbly-low JFK inshoot and left-chest exit came from a conspiracy theorist.

Thanks Jerry, I didn't notice some of your other examples of the inconsistencies between the two images, at the end of the day Dale Myers did this a decade ago with far more accuracy.

Btw your date in your graphic after "Jerry Organ" is 2013?

JohnM

[John Mytton]

These witnesses are a perfect example of the ever -changing and morphing witness statements.

Yes that can be true, nobody wants to be wrong.

In the following video Jay Watson who was a reporter and trained to notice details and was in a media follow up car quickly got back to the studio and tells the world within the hour @27:40 that there was three shots.
At another point in the video Bill Newman doesn't recall a third shot but his wife @32:20 recalls three shots.
Also Jerry, Jay's colleague in the follow up car @36:20 recalls 3 shots.

@27:40

Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.





JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

You're all over the place Dan, you show three Agents in Altgens6 who all look over their right shoulders looking for a sniper and who were all obviously at that point in time reacting to Kennedy showing signs of being shot and one describes the sounds at that later time in the plural "fireworks"!
Zapruder who was filming at a point not that much further away would have heard the same sounds or do you think that an additional ten or twenty yards would muffle the sounds?



JohnM

You're all over the place Dan

Reporting Sitzman's specific observation about the noise level of the shots at Zapruder's position, and her lack of reaction to them, is hardly "all over the place".
On the other hand, John, your own posts require a bit of clarification.
You posted the following:

Another factor to consider is after hearing a shot at approximately Z160, Connally quickly turns to the right.

You then post the evidence for camera "jiggle". However, your jiggle analysis appears to be for shots around z222/z223, z312/z313 and z150/z151

So which is it- a first shot miss "at approximately z160" or at z150/z151?

Whichever it is,in the scenario you're proposing, the assassin has watched the limo turn from Main onto Houston, travel down Houston, turn left onto Elm Street, travel down Elm Street and as soon as the limo goes behind the oak tree, the assassin has decided to take the first shot. The very first moment the limo is obscured is the moment the assassin has decided is the perfect time to open fire!

In his WC testimony, Ronald Fischer makes the following point about the man sat in the Sniper's Nest seconds before the motorcade reaches Dealey Plaza:

"And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Ell Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."

There could hardly be a better description of an assassin "visualising" the kill zone.
This is general view the assassin would've had as he stared "transfixed" at the kill zone.



To imagine he wasn't aware of the oak tree is a non-starter.
The assassin can see that the best shot is to be taken as the limo clears the oak tree and is in the open road beyond.

I have done a serious amount of research on the specific topic of when the first shot was fired ["The First Shot" thread]
I have collected a mountain of evidence which demonstrates that the first shot was taken around z222/z223 and is the shot that caused JFK's arms to fly towards his throat as seen in the Z-film.
You should trust me on this one John.

[Martin Weidmann]

Yes that can be true, nobody wants to be wrong.

In the following video Jay Watson who was a reporter and trained to notice details and was in a media follow up car quickly got back to the studio and tells the world within the hour @27:40 that there was three shots.
At another point in the video Bill Newman doesn't recall a third shot but his wife @32:20 recalls three shots.
Also Jerry, Jay's colleague in the follow up car @36:20 recalls 3 shots.

@27:40

Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.





JohnM

Imo in this case the strongest pieces of evidence is the three expended shells found on the floor of the sniper's nest which concurs with the vast majority of earwitnesses.

Are these the shells Fritz picked up or the ones he threw down in the sniper's nest?

[Dan O'meara]

Sure, they accurately laser plotted Dealey Plaza 60 years later, did they allow for the variation in land movement, repaved road height, etc etc?

Also I juxtaposed the two frames from their video presentation and matching the two images showed heavy variations, for example the Don Knotts Lab's Stemmons sign has the wrong angle, the side of the Limo warps, Connally's shoulder height is way off, etc etc.
And again, and listen closely this time, as can be seen by The Don Knotts Lab Hulking out Connally, this avalanche of mistakes leads to more unavoidable errors and lastly the exact plotting of the precise 3D positions of Hulked out Connally and Kennedy from a 2D image is open to biased interpretation.
Iirc Dale Myers scientifically allowed any variations of 3D depth which concurred with the 2D images to fit his hypothesis whereas the opposite methodology of placing the models to achieve a predetermined outcome is the antithesis of science.



JohnM

Great graphics (as per usual) by yourself and Jerry.
The difference in Connally's positioning between the two images is startling.
How has this passed under the radar for such a supposedly hi-tech representation?
It's so bad it has the whiff of something trying to fit a preconceived idea.

LATER EDIT:  And what's with the wing mirror?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

When was JBC shot through the chest?
I ask "when" in terms of the Z-film - when in the Z-film is JBC hit?
That is to say, when does JBC first show signs that he has been hit [as we cannot see the actual bullet entering him].
I am not asking, when does JBC think he was hit or when any other witness believes he was hit or what any "theory" has to say about it.
When, during the Z-film, does JBC show the clear signs of an extreme reaction that can be safely interpreted as being shot through the chest?

In the clip below, which is s bit jerkier than I would like, we see JBC looking off to his right as JFK waves and smiles to the crowds. He is partially obscured by a part of the limo.
JBC is looking off to his right as he disappears behind the Stemmons sign.
He is still looking off to his right as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.



Below is z223.
It shows JBC after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
He is still looking off to his right as he was before he passed behind the Stemmons sign and, in my opinion, he looks calm and composed:




Almost immediately after this frame JBC appears to have an extreme reaction.
The clip below is from z222 to z250.
In my opinion it shows JBC having an extreme reaction, most likely to being shot:



Is it an extreme reaction to being shot or could it be something else?
If you agree it is a reaction to being shot then when does this reaction begin?

Connally starts to react at Z224.
If reaction takes say 0.25 sec then that is 4.5 Z frames, which suggests that the shot was at Z219.5, ie Z219 or Z220.

The lapel flips at Z224.
Lattimer's tests show that a lapel flip happens 0.3 sec after the shot (if the slug is tumbling as it exits).
This suggests that the shot was 5.5 frames before the shot, which suggests that the shot was at Z218.5, ie Z218 or Z219.

I have shown that the Lattimer test had the slug too close to the lapel, in fact Lattimer's shot took a chunk out of the edge of the lapel.
So, Lattimer's test was too forceful, ie if the slug had exited in the correct location then the shot would be say 0.33  sec before, not 0.3 sec before.
This suggests that the shot was 6.0 frames before, ie at Z218.0, ie at Z218, which is what i have always said.

What i mean is that Oswald's shot-2 hit Connally at Z218.
The shot would have left the muzzle at say Z216.
Sound would have hit Connally's ears at say Z220 (too lazy to do a proper calc).

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Sure, they accurately laser plotted Dealey Plaza 60 years later, did they allow for the variation in land movement, repaved road height, etc etc?

Also I juxtaposed the two frames from their video presentation and matching the two images showed heavy variations, for example the Don Knotts Lab's Stemmons sign has the wrong angle, the side of the Limo warps, Connally's shoulder height is way off, etc etc.
And again, and listen closely this time, as can be seen by The Don Knotts Lab Hulking out Connally, this avalanche of mistakes leads to more unavoidable errors and lastly the exact plotting of the precise 3D positions of Hulked out Connally and Kennedy from a 2D image is open to biased interpretation.
Iirc Dale Myers scientifically allowed any variations of 3D depth which concurred with the 2D images to fit his hypothesis whereas the opposite methodology of placing the models to achieve a predetermined outcome is the antithesis of science.



JohnM

Knotts Lab said that they allowed for the change in height due to the road re-paving.
But i know that re-paving often involves digging out the old tarmacs, ie 2 or 3 ovem, before laying the new.
So, a new level is sometimes lower than the old level.
But this will have a minor effect, compared to any issue re the positions & angles of jfk & Connally.

Knotts did a krapp job of estimating the positions of jfk & of Connally.
Dale Myers did a good job.

We see jfk turning from his right to his left during say Z190 to when he disappears behind the sign at say Z214.
When i replicate that kind of turn i naturally dip forward a little.
With a back brace on i reckon the forward dip would be even greater.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

   
  FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. This Laser 360 Technology is far more advanced than ANY that has EVER been done with regard to the JFK Assassination/Dealey Plaza.  The Knott Lab 360 technology has routinely been used/accepted in court cases across the USA. CASE CLOSED!

Royell Royell Royell, u really should try the carnivore diet.

A laser 3D survey adds nothing to any SBT analysis.
A 1963 survey is all that is needed.
The hijinx is in the placing of jfk & Connally & limo.

Re the limo, Greer ran the left wheels just shy of the left lane line.
This placed jfk close to the center of the road, ie the center of the 3 lanes.
After all, jfk should be located at nearly an even distance from gawkers on the left & on the right.
The X painted in the center lane is well placed.