When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

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Bullets do not hurt.


Apparently you have never been shot with a bullet. I can assure you from first hand experience that they do hurt.

Sorry to hear about your injury. When did you start feeling pain? 
We are talking about the first 4 seconds after being shot in the leg. The issue is not whether bullet wounds are painful - obviously any wound can be painful once the effects of the injury are realized. The issue is whether all bullets penetrating a thigh at an oblique angle at reduced speed will necessarily will cause immediate pain and, in particular, whether it necessarily caused immediate pain for JBC that he necessarily would have noticed.   I rely on what people who have been shot say they felt in the first few seconds, and few report immediate pain:

[Dan O'meara]

    Hi Dan,
 
  Absolutely correct, Dan! 
 
 I am amazed that anyone could actually believe that John Connally has been shot anywhere before he emerges from behind the sign.  From the time Connally jerked his head from right to left to right , he remained in the same position until he re-emerges from behind the sign and shows the first sign of any change whatsoever to his face at frame 222 of the Zapruder film. Had Connally been struck at any point prior to frame 222-we would have seen.  Not a shred of evidence to support such a theory that Connally was struck before he went behind the sign.   

Hi Steve,
There's no point in getting into how insane Andrew's theory is.
Getting back to the Knotts Lab reconstruction, below is a composite I've done from the Knotts reconstruction of z225:



The red line represents the trajectory of the bullet through Connally.
One of the very few things that is universally agreed is that Connally was shot in the back, near the armpit, and the bullet exited his chest.
Has it not occurred to anyone at Knott Labs that, in their model, it is impossible for Connally to have been shot in the back without the bullet passing through JFK? Surely they have studied the Z-film, it forms the basis of their reconstruction.
The evidence in the Z-film that JBC is shot through by z225 is overwhelming:
z222  JBC emerges from behind the Stemmons sign looking composed
z222-223  JBC's white shirt cuff disappears behind the limo door as his wrist is struck
z223-224  The right side of JBC's jacket bulges as debris exits his chest
z224-225  JBC begins thrashing around
z225-onwards  JBC's radical reaction continues.

The Knott lab reconstruction is nonsense but it seems they don't have to answer any questions about it.

[Charles Collins]

Sorry to hear about your injury. When did you start feeling pain? 
We are talking about the first 4 seconds after being shot in the leg. The issue is not whether bullet wounds are painful - obviously any wound can be painful once the effects of the injury are realized. The issue is whether all bullets penetrating a thigh at an oblique angle at reduced speed will necessarily will cause immediate pain and, in particular, whether it necessarily caused immediate pain for JBC that he necessarily would have noticed.   I rely on what people who have been shot say they felt in the first few seconds, and few report immediate pain:

When did you start feeling pain?


I felt it the instant it hit me. It was a .177 caliber, 5.2 grain BB, at approximately 300 to 350 feet per second, which penetrated the skin of the palm of my hand but didn’t go much further. I was maybe 10 to 12 years old and should have known better than to let that happen.

I invite you to experiment for yourself. Use a piece of Kevlar or something to prevent penetration. Shoot yourself in the thigh with a .22 caliber pellet at the appropriate velocity. Multi-pump air guns make this feasible. Record your experiment on video. Then show us how you “didn’t feel” it.

[Andrew Mason]

At circa z142-z143, Rosemary Willis appears to possibly turn her head sharply to her right in the general direction of The Texas School Book Depository and the Presidential Limousine. If this is a rapid head turn in reaction to the first shot, it may give credence to Max Holland's theory of an early shot miss.

She is running to keep abreast of the President's car.  Her shoulders are square to the direction she is running so she has to turn her head to see the car.  And because she has a hood over her head and because the head is connected to the body part which is facing forward, she can turn her head farther around than the hood.  So what you see as she is running is consistent with Rosemary looking at the motorcade out of a partially turned hood. 

By z204, the car is well ahead of her.  At z204 she turns her head sharply right, back toward the TSBD.  We cannot read too much into any specific turn because there can be other reasons for turning one's head.  I simply observe that the sharp right turn toward the TSBD direction at z204 is within a few frames of the time her father and sister place the first shot.

Rosemary Willis 1979 interview with David Lui:

See: https://archive.org/details/RosemaryWillisArticle/mode/2up

DAVID LUI: Why did you stop running?


Rosemary Willis 1979 interview with Marcia Smith-Durk:

She stops running when she plants her right foot at z198-199.  That fits a first shot just before z202 as her father testified and when JFK was between Linda Willis and the Stemmons sign, as Linda Willis testified.

[Andrew Mason]

When did you start feeling pain?


I felt it the instant it hit me. It was a .177 caliber, 5.2 grain BB, at approximately 300 to 350 feet per second, which penetrated the skin of the palm of my hand but didn’t go much further. I was maybe 10 to 12 years old and should have known better than to let that happen.

I invite you to experiment for yourself. Use a piece of Kevlar or something to prevent penetration. Shoot yourself in the thigh with a .22 caliber pellet at the appropriate velocity. Multi-pump air guns make this feasible. Record your experiment on video. Then show us how you “didn’t feel” it.

The injury you describe is not at all similar to a bullet penetrating and destroying tissue, such as JBC’s thigh wound.The reason bullets are often not felt is because they destroy the nerve endings as they plow through the tissue. What you are describing is not that kind of injury as there was no damage except to the skin. Nerves would doing their job!

In any event it is a well documented fact - view the YouTube clip I posted - that people can be shot, particularly in an extremity or part of the body that does not immediately interfere with function, and not feel it and are not immediately aware they are shot.

[Charles Collins]

The injury you describe is not at all similar to a bullet penetrating and destroying tissue, such as JBC’s thigh wound.The reason bullets are often not felt is because they destroy the nerve endings as they plow through the tissue. What you are describing is not that kind of injury as there was no damage except to the skin. Nerves would doing their job!

In any event it is a well documented fact - view the YouTube clip I posted - that people can be shot, particularly in an extremity or part of the body that does not immediately interfere with function, and not feel it and are not immediately aware they are shot.

I consider the wound I suffered to be more than skin-deep. In fact the projectile was removed by a doctor. He said that usually they would just leave the projectile in there for fear of doing more damage to the tissue during removal. But in this case he could see the BB and felt that it could be removed with minimal collateral damage. I still have a scar, and from time to time that hand gets painful. I cannot help but believe that the pain stems from that injury. JBC’s wound was described by the doctors as shallow also. So I think the two wounds are somewhat similar despite what you say. I am not arguing that it is impossible to get shot and not immediately feel it. There are many variables involved. However, I cannot believe that your idea that JBC was shot in the thigh first and didn’t feel it has any validity whatsoever.

[Andrew Mason]

I consider the wound I suffered to be more than skin-deep. In fact the projectile was removed by a doctor. He said that usually they would just leave the projectile in there for fear of doing more damage to 3the tissue during removal. But in this case he could see the BB and felt that it could be removed with minimal collateral damage. I still have a scar, and from time to time that hand gets painful. I cannot help but believe that the pain stems from that injury. JBC’s wound was described by the doctors as shallow also. So I think the two wounds are somewhat similar despite what you say. I am not arguing that it is impossible to get shot and not immediately feel it. There are many variables involved. However, I cannot believe that your idea that JBC was shot in the thigh first and didn’t feel it has any validity whatsoever.

Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.

 There is really no evidence really that it occurred from the same bullet that passed through his wrist and reason to believe that it wasn't.  The wound characteristics of the wrist and thigh are quite different. The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile.  The wrist and cuff appeared to have been struck by an irregular shaped missile. The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second.  The trajectory from JFK to the left thigh does not require any change in direction after passing through JFK.

[Charles Collins]

Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.

 There is really no evidence really that it occurred from the same bullet that passed through his wrist and reason to believe that it wasn't.  The wound characteristics of the wrist and thigh are quite different. The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile.  The wrist and cuff appeared to have been struck by an irregular shaped missile. The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second.  The trajectory from JFK to the left thigh does not require any change in direction after passing through JFK.

Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.

Of course he didn’t feel it. Because it happened concurrently with the back/chest and wrist wounds. You have absolutely no evidence that the thigh wound happened well before that. Only your own ideas.


The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile.

CE 399 is intact except for a few small flakes of the lead compound missing from the butt end and a flattening deformation on one side.


The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second.

Place JBC’s legs with the knees to his right (as they most likely were) and all of your objections disappear.