When Was JBC Hit?

[Charles Collins]

Yes, that was going to be my followup question: How can JBC be hit in the back when he's clearly turned sideways at 271/272? Even before that he's turned away from the building.

Once one accepts the validity of the physical evidence, it should become clear that the only conclusion that fits the physical evidence is the single bullet conclusion. Therefore some of the witness accounts must simply be inaccurate. I believe that even JBC admits that he could be wrong (in his book).

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Once one accepts the validity of the physical evidence, it should become clear that the only conclusion that fits the physical evidence is the single bullet conclusion. Therefore some of the witness accounts must simply be inaccurate. I believe that even JBC admits that he could be wrong (in his book).

I used to be a conspiracy believer in large part because the lone assassin explanation made no sense. But it wasn't explained properly - they (I think it was primarily Groden's book) had the bullet zig zagging and I fell for it; *and* the alternate explanations for what happened didn't add up. Plus this enhanced Zapruder film has details we didn't have before. Any other explanation for what happened, for me, simply doesn't work.

[Charles Collins]

Here’s a snip from “November 22, 1963: You are the Jury” by David Belin (page 304-306):

Meanwhile, long before we saw Life’s original Zapruder film, I had an idea to try to prove that the same rifle had not fired all of the shots. I wrote to the Dallas office of the Secret Service and asked them to contact the three physicians who had treated Governor Connally - one for a back wound, one for a hand wound, and one for a slight leg wound. I asked Secret Service to have these three doctors assemble and reconstruct the position of Governor Connally as it must have been to receive the wounds he received on Nov. 22. Secret Service did contact these physicians, and I received in the mail the reconstructed position of Governor Connally as it would be from five different viewpoints. The only difficulty was that in three of the poses the doctors showed that the bullet entered the back of Governor Connally’s wrist and came out on the front side and in two it was shown vice versa.
I called this discrepancy to the attention of the Secret Service and asked that they in turn call this to the attention of Governor Connally’s physicians. I eventually received a revised set of drawings in which in all five poses the wrist wound was shown entering from the back or dorsal side of the wrist and exiting from the front.
Through a substantial portion of the Zapruder film, Governor Connally’s right arm and wrist could be seen with relation to the rest of his body. I then asked the FBI experts to look at the drawings prepared by Governor Connally’s physicians, compare them with the Zapruder film and tell us where Governor Connally could not have been hit on the film.
To have the full impact of what happened next, you should have this frame of reference: Almost everyone had assumed up to this point that the first shot struck President Kennedy, the second shot struck Governor Connally, and the third shot struck President Kennedy, and all three shots had been fired from one weapon. The FBI had reached this conclusion, as had the Secret Service. No physical evidence had been found up to that point that would prove otherwise.
On the other hand, here was one independent, a lawyer from Des Moines, Iowa, who was trying to prove - in the face of the FBI and the Secret Service - that this theory was wrong.
And I succeeded. According to the FBI photographic laboratory experts, Governor Connally was not in the position reconstructed by his doctors at any time after frame 240.

Edit: Would I like to see documentation of this including the drawings and correspondence? Yep, I sure would.

[Andrew Mason]

The sudden movement of JBC that begins at z271-272 and continues through z278 before he falls back.


The position of JBC at 271-272 relative to the sniper’s nest window is not compatible with a bullet entering and exiting JBC’s back and chest respectively in the places that it actually did enter and exit.

The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest. It went around the fifth rib until the last 10 cm, which it shattered, driving bone shards through the pleural lining and into the right lung.  If you draw a path along the fifth rib from the very exposed right armpit that was facing the SN to just below the right nipple, it is almost a straight line - just a small deflection to the left. That deflection is consistent with the impact felt by JBC and with the force required to break the fifth rib close to the spine.

The bullet then exited the chest and struck the back of the radius well above the wrist joint in the middle of the french cuff, which happens to be pressed against the chest with the entry point on the cuff at the same point as the exit point (through the right jacket pocket).

In striking the back of the radius that is pronated so the back of the forearm is against the chest, the bullet fragmented and drove bone shards down into the wrist and made a jagged tear in the cuff.  The bullet fragmented, as evidenced by the jagged cuff mark and the lead deposits as well as the large entry wound on the forearm. 

Some fragments likely deflected up away from the point of contact and some  possibly continued forward through the wrist striking the windshield.  A fragment from the second shot struck the curb near Tague. That is consistent with several fragments, one of which went just over the windshield toward Tague and two of which did the damage to the windshield frame and glass.  SA Greer (whose right ear was about 12 inches away) described a "concussion" from the second shot.  That's not all, there is a change in the appearance of the wrist and hat which is consistent with a slight change in the position of the hat in the hand. 
He does turn toward his left from that far right turn as he falls back on Nellie. He told the WC he intended to turn to the left when he was hit but wasn't sure how far around he was when hit.  Nellie told DR. Shires that he was turned right when he was hit and did not mention turning forward or to the left before he was hit:

 6 H 108:
Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned
to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened
to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot,
turned to his right, and then was hit.
I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers
turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot
about that.
Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?
Dr. SHIRES Oh, several days later.
Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes. 4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

....
Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story
of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception
had been warm and that she was glad he couldn’t say that people of Texas
and in Dallas didn’t like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with
the way things had gone the whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred
was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot-he
remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and
his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was “They’re going to kill all
of us,” and that’s the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until
he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that,
and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.

[Charles Collins]

The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest. It went around the fifth rib until the last 10 cm, which it shattered, driving bone shards through the pleural lining and into the right lung.  If you draw a path along the fifth rib from the very exposed right armpit that was facing the SN to just below the right nipple, it is almost a straight line - just a small deflection to the left. That deflection is consistent with the impact felt by JBC and with the force required to break the fifth rib close to the spine.

The bullet then exited the chest and struck the back of the radius well above the wrist joint in the middle of the french cuff, which happens to be pressed against the chest with the entry point on the cuff at the same point as the exit point (through the right jacket pocket).

In striking the back of the radius that is pronated so the back of the forearm is against the chest, the bullet fragmented and drove bone shards down into the wrist and made a jagged tear in the cuff.  The bullet fragmented, as evidenced by the jagged cuff mark and the lead deposits as well as the large entry wound on the forearm. 

Some fragments likely deflected up away from the point of contact and some  possibly continued forward through the wrist striking the windshield.  A fragment from the second shot struck the curb near Tague. That is consistent with several fragments, one of which went just over the windshield toward Tague and two of which did the damage to the windshield frame and glass.  SA Greer (whose right ear was about 12 inches away) described a "concussion" from the second shot.  That's not all, there is a change in the appearance of the wrist and hat which is consistent with a slight change in the position of the hat in the hand. 
He does turn toward his left from that far right turn as he falls back on Nellie. He told the WC he intended to turn to the left when he was hit but wasn't sure how far around he was when hit.  Nellie told DR. Shires that he was turned right when he was hit and did not mention turning forward or to the left before he was hit:

 6 H 108:
Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned
to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened
to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot,
turned to his right, and then was hit.
I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers
turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot
about that.
Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?
Dr. SHIRES Oh, several days later.
Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes. 4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

....
Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story
of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception
had been warm and that she was glad he couldn’t say that people of Texas
and in Dallas didn’t like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with
the way things had gone the whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred
was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot-he
remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and
his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was “They’re going to kill all
of us,” and that’s the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until
he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that,
and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.

The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest.

I believe that it would have if JBC was sitting sideways as your idea dictates. It appears to me (and I suspect most of us) that if the limo is essentially pointed and moving directly away from the sniper’s nest (it was), and JBC is sitting sideways relative to the long axis of the limo, then the bullet entering his back below his right armpit would tend to exit on his left side (not near his right nipple). This is why I (and I suspect most of us) say JBC was not in a position to have the wounds line up the way they did during the time your idea suggests.


You are avoiding the fact that JBC himself testified under oath that he turned to his right again after he was shot. Your idea has JBC being shot after he turned to his right for the last time. There is a conflict here that you are apparently trying to avoid. Here is a snip from “Passion For Truth” by Arlen Specter, page 72:

At one point while viewing the film, Connally and his wife argued over whether the governor had fallen into his wife’s lap or she had pulled him into her lap. Connally insisted that he had fallen. Mrs. Connally insisted that she had pulled him. “No, Nellie,” “No, John,” they shot back and forth, several times. Eventually Mrs. Connally had the film halted and took Connally and Carr out to the hall for a conference. When they returned shortly, Nellie Connally and the governor were in agreement - on Mrs. Connally’s version.
Of course, I didn’t know what they said outside. But considering I was trying to gather a witness’s own account of the shooting, the Connally summit was not comforting. Later that afternoon, when the governor testified, he said, “So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to - just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap.” His wife’s words.

[Andrew Mason]

Wow. You can’t even view a simple interview without attempting to twist it into this goofy story you have going on all the time. Actually, it is mind boggling unbelievable. 

Yes. I see how I twisted Zapruder's interview.  I listened to it.  Unbelievable! Who actually listens to evidence!  How else could I have concluded that Zapruder was not sure whether he heard two or three shots?  You, of course, don't think he was confused at all. You may want to review it again.

Wouldn’t it be better to just stick to proving you do not know anything about physics, firearms, witness testimony, sound analysis, and ballistics instead of branching out to proving you do not know anything about assessing the Jay Watson -Zapruder interview?

Sorry. I thought most people understood grade 11 high school physics.  Next time I post something that uses trigonometry or basic principles like conservation of momentum, should I post a link to a high school curriculum refresher for you?

[Andrew Mason]

The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest.

I believe that it would have if JBC was sitting sideways as your idea dictates. It appears to me (and I suspect most of us) that if the limo is essentially pointed and moving directly away from the sniper’s nest (it was), and JBC is sitting sideways relative to the long axis of the limo, then the bullet entering his back below his right armpit would tend to exit on his left side (not near his right nipple). This is why I (and I suspect most of us) say JBC was not in a position to have the wounds line up the way they did during the time your idea suggests.

It hit his fifth rib.  Turn around in a chair twisting your shoulders around with your seat facing forward and you can see that your right armpit and right nipple are in an almost straight line to the rear if not the nipple a bit to the left of that line.  The bullet does not go through the rib initially because it is an oblique strike and travels along it. But it puts force on the rib pushing it in before it plows through the thinner end of it.

You are avoiding the fact that JBC himself testified under oath that he turned to his right again after he was shot. Your idea has JBC being shot after he turned to his right for the last time. There is a conflict here that you are apparently trying to avoid. Here is a snip from “Passion For Truth” by Arlen Specter, page 72:

At one point while viewing the film, Connally and his wife argued over whether the governor had fallen into his wife’s lap or she had pulled him into her lap. Connally insisted that he had fallen. Mrs. Connally insisted that she had pulled him. “No, Nellie,” “No, John,” they shot back and forth, several times. Eventually Mrs. Connally had the film halted and took Connally and Carr out to the hall for a conference. When they returned shortly, Nellie Connally and the governor were in agreement - on Mrs. Connally’s version.
Of course, I didn’t know what they said outside. But considering I was trying to gather a witness’s own account of the shooting, the Connally summit was not comforting. Later that afternoon, when the governor testified, he said, “So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to - just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap.” His wife’s words.

I am not trying to avoid a conflict.  I am trying to determine whether he turned left before he was hit.  We all know that Connally later said he thought he had started his left turn and was hit facing forward after he had turned.  I am just pointing out that he was not that clear initially.  The last thought he had could well have been "I will turn left to see JFK" but he always admitted that he was not sure how far in that turn he had gone before he was hit.

It is at least interesting that in 1966 JBC posed for Life Magazine (Life, 25Nov1966:p. 48A):


I will admit that Connally may not have been the best witness as to where he was facing when hit.  He may have had other things going through his mind.  Nellie maintained that he was turned right when he was hit.   SBT proponents want to accept Connally's WC testimony that he was facing forward, but refuse to accept his distinct recollection of the time gap between the first shot that hit JFK and the one that he felt strike him.

[Jack Nessan]

Yes. I see how I twisted Zapruder's interview.  I listened to it.  Unbelievable! Who actually listens to evidence!  How else could I have concluded that Zapruder was not sure whether he heard two or three shots?  You, of course, don't think he was confused at all. You may want to review it again.Sorry. I thought most people understood grade 11 high school physics.  Next time I post something that uses trigonometry or basic principles like conservation of momentum, should I post a link to a high school curriculum refresher for you?

11th grade? You are being kind to yourself. You presented your understanding of physics as a bullet striking a hard object. Absolutely demonstrated zero understanding of ballistics. Given your many attempts and repeated failures at physics, maybe math is not your thing. It is always comical to read a child's understanding of complex issues. Please don’t stop.

Zapruder is sitting in a chair and Watson is talking and from that you know everything he has heard after entering into the building and standing then sitting in the studio?  Did you miss the part where Watson could not wait to tell him there were three shots. Did you also imagine hearing Zapruder mention a shot halfway between the throat shot and the head shot?

JBC, Nellie, and Jackie all mention the first shot hit JBC. Are you still struggling with the basics?