When Was JBC Hit?

[Charles Collins]

A 12’ lane width is only the minimum standard for interstate highways in the USA. In practice they vary quite a bit. People who live in Texas and California are accustomed to significantly wider lanes. So much wider that they often comment on how narrow the lanes are when they are visiting elsewhere. A rough idea of Elm Street’s width can be measured with Google Maps. It shows the lanes’ widths to be about 13 feet each.

[Joe Elliott]

. . .

"Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot."

. . .

Who said that? Must be more Masomactics.

Pigeons not waiting 5 seconds to take flight after hearing a shot is a basic insight of biology that Charles Darwin devoted an entire chapter to in his book 'Origin of the Species". Or maybe this is just something Andrew came up with. I don't remember.

Actually, I think Pigeons are unpredictable. They might hear a shot and stay still and look around before a second or even a third shot causes one of them to take off and the rest to follow suit. Or maybe they would take off from near the center of the roof after the first shot but not become visible to observers on Elm Street until they were 20 feet or more above the roof, or flew horizontally into view to people below. There could be a delay of several seconds after they took off before people could see them. Or maybe not. It is hard to say.

Besides, I am reluctant to rely on the memories of witnesses, let along the decisions of pigeons.

[Joe Elliott]

It doesn't take that long to stop. Most people can go from a run to a stop in 2 or 3 steps. She may have been slowing because the President's car was pulling away and she could not longer keep up to it.  Besides, she said that when she heard the first shot she stopped and looked back at the TSBD and saw pigeons flying away from the roof. She stops at z199.  She was not turned looking at the TSBD until z204. She then turns sharply back toward the TSBD at z204-207. Pigeons didn't wait 5 seconds to take flight after hearing the shot.

Most people can go from a run to a stop in 2 or 3 steps? I don't know about most people but I can't without the assistance of a side of a building. Like Wily Coyote style.

I remember that John Madden said the very best NFL cornerbacks could start to react, not stop but start to react, in one or two steps, a more typical NFL cornerback in two steps and a good college cornerback who fails to make the cut in the NFL might need three or even 4 steps.

Certainly 1.5 seconds does not sound like an unreasonable amount of time for a child to go from a run to a stop, like from z163 to z190.

[Andrew Mason]

40' width is the roadway for traffic.

Your source would be helpful. 

The right side of the car is about in the center of the lane. Cutler and Roberdeau have JFK a little to the left-of-center. But you know more than anyone else, so never-mind.

I think you meant 78.6" wide. But if you think Ford got it wrong all these years, write them.

I was using the actual measurements found in the 6 HSCA 50:


which shows the width to be 76.8 inches:

The tire distance to the lane stripe isn't the side of the car distance. The tire is not on the same plane as the side of the car. With Z170, for example, I don't think the widest part of the left side of the left-front tire is in view and we can only see the tread, which is inward from the car side more.

Ok. So tell us how far the right edge of the car is left or right of the centre of the centre lane and how far JFK is to the left of that.

I suggest you use a map that's somewhat accurate.

I would be happy to, if you can find one.

But you know more than what aerial photos can tell us, so never-mind.

Your aerial view does not show Dealey Plaza as it was in 1963. For one thing, in 1963 the lamp posts were on the curb edge of the sidewalk.  They are moved back to the grass side in your photo.

[Andrew Mason]

Re: 40' width is the roadway for traffic. Really, Andrew. This is 101 stuff. "The width of each concrete roadway through the Plaza is 40 feet." (CE 877) Houston Street (and Elm and Main where they begin eastward of Houston) are wider, at 60' width per Google Apps.

That is a document prepared by the FBI and it is not clear where the FBI person who wrote that got their information. They look like asphalt roadways.  I note that BBN in its HSCA report stated that Elm St. was “about 40 feet wide” which sounds like they didn’t measure it. .

Sounds like a typo. The Hum-3D model has a width of 78.6". Without a 1961 Continental in front of me, I can't tell you what that 76.8" (if accurate) measurement refers to (the width of the rear bumper only?). If someone could, please let me know.

I can't travel back in time and set up laser scanners to give you a figure in inches. Would you agree that JFK's line-of-travel was not in the center of the middle lane, as you tried to con people into believing?

 
So let’s assume you are right and the lanes are 13’4” or 160 inches wide.  If the lane makers are 4 inches wide then the middle is 78 inches right of the right edge of the left lane marker.

If the left edge of the car is 10 inches right of the right edge of the lane markers, then the right side of the car is 76.8” farther right or 86.8” left of the right edge of the left lane marker or 8.8 inches right of the centre of the lane.

So the question is: how far is JFK’s midline left of the car right side?  I would suggest that JFK’s ribs were four inches left of the inside wall of the car and that the right edge of the car was a further 6 inches from that wall. If you add 8 inches from his ribs to his spine, this puts his midline 18 inches from the right edge of the car or 86.8-18=68.8” right of the lane marker and 9.2” left of the centre of the lane.

If the lanes are 12’ wide, the middle is 70 inches right of the right edge of the left lane marker, JFK would be 1.2 inches left of the centre.

So, yes, I admit that JFK is left of the centre line by 1.2 to 9.2 inches depending on the lane width. If the car is actually 78.6” wide as you suggest, then JFK’s midline would be between .6 inches right and 7.4 inches left of the midline.

I wasn't referring to the lampposts. What do you make of how far removed the rounded curb and north end of the reflecting pool are relative to the Itek Map? Are you going to continue to use that map?

All I need is a surveyed map with an accurate scale.  I could agree to google maps if you can establish that there was no change in road width since 1963. According to Google maps the measured width is 11.8 m (38.7 feet).

[Zeon Mason]

Ok I can see the argument by Mr.Elliott that the Willis girl probably did not stop EXACTLY at the moment she heard a loud shot, so the abrupt halt at Z195 approx may be reaction to some shot about 3 secs earlier at Z160ish.

But  that would be a shot that was not heard by Betzner photo 186 and Willis photo Z205 and it doesn’t fit so many witness hearing the last 2 shots back to back or only about sec apart (like Lee Bowers).

And Altgens only heard one shot prior to Z255 and the SS agents are not looking back to TSBD along that whole Z133-Z207 segment of the Z film.

Yet The Willis girl turns her head back to TSBD by about Z200

What if a 1st shot at Z160 was made by a smaller caliber rifle ( or suppressed ) fired by a 2nd gunman in the Daltex building? Could that explain why Willis girl who was closer to Daltex heard a Z160 shot but Betzner, Willis father , SS agents , and Altgens who were all farther from Daltex, missed hearing a Z160 shot?

[Dan O'meara]

Do you agree that JFK was clear of the tree branches when he was between the lamp post and the Thornton Freeway sign?

If yes, what zframe does that correspond to? If it is not between z186 and z200, tell us what is wrong with the Itek analysis.

If no, what is wrong with the Secret Service December 1963 reenactment?

Simple questions.

Simple questions indeed.
It would have been a pleasure to take your  apart myself but Jerry has done that far better than I ever could.
As he points out, the position of the limo is way off in the Itek analysis which blows your reliance on it, to bolster your demented theory, out of the water.



Jerry also reveals your suspect use of a dodgy pic to make some kind of weak point. His correction to that picture (shown above) yet again destroys your demented theory.
It is also important to highlight how devious you are willing to be to as you cling on to your nonsense. You ask this question:

"If it is not between z186 and z200, tell us what is wrong with the Itek analysis"

Yet in your very next Reply you post this:

"I agree with you that the placement of Betzner is wrong. (Itek has Betzner where Willis was.  But they have Willis on the grass off the pavement where Croft was. It appears to me that they mistook Willis for Betzner and Croft for Willis). "

You knew all along there were fundamental problems with the Itek analysis but were willing to pretend there wasn't.
Typical you.

The bottom line is that your idea that the shooter shot through the oak tree is as preposterous as the rest of your demented theory. Your weak attempts to show JFK was clear of the oak tree by the time of your first proposed shot have been revealed as exactly that - pathetically weak.

[Andrew Mason]

Simple questions indeed.
It would have been a pleasure to take your  apart myself but Jerry has done that far better than I ever could.
As he points out, the position of the limo is way off in the Itek analysis which blows your reliance on it, to bolster your demented theory, out of the water.

The limo in the Itek plot may have been between 1 and 9 inches too far right. Not exactly “way off”

Jerry also reveals your suspect use of a dodgy pic to make some kind of weak point. His correction to that picture (shown above) yet again destroys your demented theory.

Actually, the “dodgy pic” was taken by the Secret Service and is one of the frames from the video posted on YouTube.  The dodgy pics are the ones provided by Jerry and superimposed over the car in the Secret Service film.  He doesn’t reveal their source.

It is also important to highlight how devious you are willing to be to as you cling on to your nonsense. You ask this question:

"If it is not between z186 and z200, tell us what is wrong with the Itek analysis"

Yet in your very next Reply you post this:

"I agree with you that the placement of Betzner is wrong. (Itek has Betzner where Willis was.  But they have Willis on the grass off the pavement where Croft was. It appears to me that they mistook Willis for Betzner and Croft for Willis). "

You knew all along there were fundamental problems with the Itek analysis but were willing to pretend there wasn't.
Typical you.

You seem to be completely unaware that the correct placement of Betzner puts JFK farther back on Elm St. at the time of Betzner’s photo than was shown by Itek. So you need to get a better grasp of what you are criticizing.

The bottom line is that your idea that the shooter shot through the oak tree is as preposterous as the rest of your demented theory. Your weak attempts to show JFK was clear of the oak tree by the time of your first proposed shot have been revealed as exactly that - pathetically weak.

You obviously haven’t read or understood my posts.  The  “demented theory” is that Oswald waited for almost two seconds to fire after his target came into clear view.