When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

The usual demented nonsense.
JFK is covered by leaves but clear of the tree??!!

Maybe we can settle this debate by reference to the lane markers. In this frame from the 1963 Secret Service film, JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers:
Here is CE882, the scale map of Dealey Plaza showing the lane markers on which I have shown the position of JFK when he is in the position of being even with the ends of the lane markers:

On this, I have shown the sight line from Zapruder to JFK and extended it to the right where it intersects with the very end of the curved concrete wall around the end of the reflecting pool.
So to determine the zframe that this corresponds to, we simply look for the frame in which JFK aligns with the end of that concrete wall.  It appears to be z196:

This is the view the assassin was staring at "transfixed":



Imagine you are the assassin visualising the kill zone. Where, in the above picture, is the perfect place to take the kill shot?

I would have to say it would be well before this position. JFK has been in the clear for almost a car length, say 15-20 feet.  Why would the shooter wait at all? I would suggest that, since JFK was visible while passing under the outer oak tree branches, the shooter could easily have pulled the trigger as soon as he was clear and did not have to wait at all.  He could have fired even a bit earlier than that while JFK was here but still quite visible:

[Andrew Mason]

In Andrews scenario, of a z193  6.5 mm bullet at 2000ft/sec having gone thru only a minimal amount of JFKs body and throat with only a minimal transfer of momentum,  thus the velocity reduced only by 500ft/sec,  then should not that bullet  now traveling at least at 1500 ft/ sec and going directly into JCs left thigh muscle have been buried pretty deeply in his leg?

In the WC scenario, the reason for the bullet supposedly having fallen out of JCs left leg was because that bullet lost much more velocity from having gone thru more of JCs torso, muscle and  passing between 2 rib bones AND also  from going thru JCs wrist bone. Thus the thigh wound was very shallow.

So how does  Andrew account for JCs thigh wound being so  shallow  if the Z 193 bullet after exiting JFK still had a velocity of  1500 ft/ sec when it hit JCs left leg?

According to Larry SPersonivan, at 1000 fps to 1400 fps the bullet will start deforming on impact with bone (SPersonivan 3H396).   The 1400 fps is if it hits nose-first.  The 1000 fps is if it hits sideways.  It deformed just on the side of the butt end in only one place. Let's say that indicates that it hit bone at 1000 to 1200 fps.
Dr. Shires had always insisted that there was a small piece of lead in the femur. If that is the case, then let's say the bullet struck the femur enough to dent the copper jacket at a bit more than 1100 fps.  At that point, it did not have sufficient energy to break the femur or deform further, so it either stopped or deflected away from the bone. If it entered the thigh (Shires described it as an oblique wound) at 1500 fps then it just had to lose a bit less than 400 fps in passing, butt-first, through the skin, subcutaneous fat and thigh muscle (the vastus medialis, which is the inner thigh muscle)  to strike the femur in that manner.  Seems plausible to me but maybe someone who has treated bullet wounds and is a ballistics expert would care to opine.

[Dan O'meara]

Maybe we can settle this debate by reference to the lane markers. In this frame from the 1963 Secret Service film, JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers:
Here is CE882, the scale map of Dealey Plaza showing the lane markers on which I have shown the position of JFK when he is in the position of being even with the ends of the lane markers:

On this, I have shown the sight line from Zapruder to JFK and extended it to the right where it intersects with the very end of the curved concrete wall around the end of the reflecting pool.
So to determine the zframe that this corresponds to, we simply look for the frame in which JFK aligns with the end of that concrete wall.  It appears to be z196:

I would have to say it would be well before this position. JFK has been in the clear for almost a car length, say 15-20 feet.  Why would the shooter wait at all? I would suggest that, since JFK was visible while passing under the outer oak tree branches, the shooter could easily have pulled the trigger as soon as he was clear and did not have to wait at all.  He could have fired even a bit earlier than that while JFK was here but still quite visible:

Maybe we can settle this debate by reference to the lane markers

Rest assured, this debate was settled quite some time ago.
It was settled the day the FBI did it's reconstruction.
At z193 JFK is still passing beneath the oak tree from the SN PoV.
It doesn't matter if you don't accept that. It really doesn't matter at all.
It doesn't matter that all your arguments have been destroyed over and over again.
It doesn't matter how deep in denial you are.
None of it matters.

[Andrew Mason]

Maybe we can settle this debate by reference to the lane markers

Rest assured, this debate was settled quite some time ago.
It was settled the day the FBI did it's reconstruction.
At z193 JFK is still passing beneath the oak tree from the SN PoV.
It doesn't matter if you don't accept that. It really doesn't matter at all.
It doesn't matter that all your arguments have been destroyed over and over again.
It doesn't matter how deep in denial you are.
None of it matters.

If you are right, you should be able to show why JFK was not in the clear where the SS film shows him to be in the clear OR why that position is not z196.  You refuse to look behind the FBI reconstruction.  It was not my only ITek that didn’t agree with it.  Anyone who has looked at it has been unable to explain their findings. We can see from the SS film with a better car with seats similar to those in the SX100 that JFK would have been in clear view from the SN well before z207.  To suggest that he waited until z222 is just speculation.

[Zeon Mason]

@Andrew; Is your Z193  hit on JC include the  bullet going thru his wrist bone before it hits JCs leg?

If so that could slow the bullet down a little more but I’m not sure if it would be enough velocity lost to cause only a shallow wound in JCs leg.

The WC scenario has the bullet being slowed down to about 900 ft/sec when it exited more JCs body and then slowed even more because it was tumbling when it hit JCs wrist and supposedly entered the wrist backwards , before it exited thru the hand and into JCs leg.

So I’m uncertain if you were suggesting that the bullet exiting JFK s throat started tumbling at that point and or if it hit JCs wrist bone backwards similar to the WC theory.

[Andrew Mason]

@Andrew; Is your Z193  hit on JC include the  bullet going thru his wrist bone before it hits JCs leg?

If so that could slow the bullet down a little more but I’m not sure if it would be enough velocity lost to cause only a shallow wound in JCs leg.

The WC scenario has the bullet being slowed down to about 900 ft/sec when it exited more JCs body and then slowed even more because it was tumbling when it hit JCs wrist and supposedly entered the wrist backwards , before it exited thru the hand and into JCs leg.

So I’m uncertain if you were suggesting that the bullet exiting JFK s throat started tumbling at that point and or if it hit JCs wrist bone backwards similar to the WC theory.

Here is the trajectory from the SN through JFK at z195:


The 10g bullet striking JBC’s wrist after passing through his chest was going fast enough to do serious damage to the radius bone.  So it might seem surprising that the bullet after passing through JFK’s neck would not do serious damage to the femur.  The main difference is that the bullet passed through a large amount of strong neck muscle and then was tumbling end over end and then struck the thigh obliquely and butt-first whereas the bullet through JBC did not pass through large muscle mass in the torso or wrist and struck nose-first directly on the radius.  We also don’t know how the bullet, CE399, came out of the thigh wound.  It may have deflected away from the femur after striking it and denting the base.  So it may not have come to rest in the thigh.  The recent claim by Paul Landis was that the bullet was found on the back seat. If true, the bullet had enough energy to keep going and strike something hard enough to bounce back to the back seat.

[Dan O'meara]

Maybe we can settle this debate by reference to the lane markers. In this frame from the 1963 Secret Service film, JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers:
Here is CE882, the scale map of Dealey Plaza showing the lane markers on which I have shown the position of JFK when he is in the position of being even with the ends of the lane markers:

On this, I have shown the sight line from Zapruder to JFK and extended it to the right where it intersects with the very end of the curved concrete wall around the end of the reflecting pool.
So to determine the zframe that this corresponds to, we simply look for the frame in which JFK aligns with the end of that concrete wall.  It appears to be z196:

I would have to say it would be well before this position. JFK has been in the clear for almost a car length, say 15-20 feet.  Why would the shooter wait at all? I would suggest that, since JFK was visible while passing under the outer oak tree branches, the shooter could easily have pulled the trigger as soon as he was clear and did not have to wait at all.  He could have fired even a bit earlier than that while JFK was here but still quite visible:

Maybe we can settle this debate by reference to the lane markers.

settle this debate?
Debate?
How is this a debate?
It is a constant destruction of your demented theory. How is that a debate?
You constantly lie, you are constantly deceitful. How is that a debate?
How can a debate take place in the face of constant lies and deceit?

It clearly cannot.

Are these accusations of lies and deceit unfounded?
Well, let's have a closer look at your post.

In this frame from the 1963 Secret Service film, JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers:

JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers?
What are you talking about?
In the picture on the left you are saying JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers.
What are you basing this on?
Is this a case of "Well, it looks that way to me d'uhhh"
Have you got anything to back this demented suggestion up with?
Are you going to ask me to prove his back is not even with the end of the lane markers?

But, for argument's sake, let's say your demented, plucked out of thin air suggestion is correct, and that JFK's back is even with the end of the lane markers.
You then draw our attention to the image on the right, where you believe JFK would be clear of the oak tree.
And here the level of your deceit is truly revealed.
You are trying to convince everyone that the image on the right is a close up of the image on the left - that is how you want to prove that JFK is clear of the oak tree when his back is level with the end of the lane markers.
BUT THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PHOTOGRAPHS.



Look at the arrangement of people around the tree on the left (circled in red). They are different.
Look at the police motorcyclist (circled in blue) present in the image on the right but not on the left!!
This is a deceitful lie of the worst kind as far as "research" is concerned and it makes a mockery of the notion of a debate.
How can a debate truly exist when you will constantly stoop to any depths to prop up your demented theory.

How can you defend such a deceitful approach to this topic?
How do you justify stooping to such depths?
Have you noticed that I never have to employ such weak-minded tactics?
Aren't you embarrassed by your need to resort to such tactics?

[Andrew Mason]

You are trying to convince everyone that the image on the right is a close up of the image on the left - that is how you want to prove that JFK is clear of the oak tree when his back is level with the end of the lane markers.
BUT THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PHOTOGRAPHS.

Of course they are different photographs! Did you understand where they are from? The Secret Service did several different takes with a camera and several through the telescopic sight.  How are they going to do them both at the same time?  View the film yourself:

What I did was provide you frames from the film showing the car and JFK in the same position relative to the tree.  I didn't realize that you needed that explained.