Motorcade Stopped On Stemmons On Ramp (Earle Brown Ed Hoffman Seth Sandra Pat)

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

(By John Mytton)(link=topic=3887.msg153608#msg153608 date=1702194978) (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3887.40 )
(start of quote) ................... Anyway, let's get back on track.

Now that I've destroyed Royell's belief that Curry's lead car just went "poof" and disappeared by utilizing Curry's, Sorrels' and Lawson's under oath testimonies where they all describe assisting in some way with the removal of Kennedy and Connally from JFK's Limo and a photo to top it off, of the Lead car at Parkland. And I also smashed Royell's repeated assertion that their was no antenna over the right door with a range of corroborating photographs, but enough of that, and let's tackle yet another of his latest conspiracies, "After JFK's Limo left Dealey Plaza it stopped so an AR-15 could be retrieved from the trunk."

First of all let's see what the passengers of the Lead Car, JFK's Limo, Hickey in the Queen Mary had to say?

Curry who was in the Lead Car, WC testimony.

Mr. HUBERT - Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.
Mr. CURRY - Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Express-way-it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to have a luncheon.
I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so.

Lawson who was in the Lead Car, original report.

At the corner of Houston and Elm Streets I verified with Chief Curry that we were about five minutes from the Trade Mart and gave this signal over my portable White House Communications radio. We were just approaching a railroad overpass and I checked to see if a police officer was in position there and that no one was directly over our path. I noticed a police officer but also noticed a few persons on the bridge and made motions to have these persons removed from over our path. As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Both the President's car and our Lead Car rapidly accelerated almost simultaneously. I heard a report over the two-way radio that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. I noticed Agent Hill hanging on to the rear of the President's vehicle. A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident. I requested Chief Curry to have the hospital contacted that we were on the way. Our Lead Car assisted the motorcycles in escorting the President's vehicle to Parkland Hospital.

Upon our arrival there at approximately 12:34 p.m., I rushed into the emergency entrance, met persons coming with two stretchers and helped rush them outside. Governor Connally was being removed from the car when the stretchers arrived and he was placed on the first one. Mr. Powers, myself and one or two others placed President Kennedy on a stretcher and we ran pushing the stretcher into the emergency area which hospital personnel directed us to.

Sorrels' who was in the Lead Car, WC testimony.

Mr. STERN - Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been consistent with your hearing of the shots?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes; they would have.
Mr. STERN - What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS - We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.
Mr. STERN - Did you go into the hospital?
Mr. SORRELS - No; I did not go into the hospital.

Greer who drove JFK's Limo, original report.

The President's automobile was almost past this building and I was looking at the overpass that we were about to pass under in case someone was on top of it, when I heard what I thought was the backfire of a motorcycle behind the President's automobile. After the second shot, I glanced over my right shoulder and saw Governor Connally start to fall, I knew then that something was wrong and I immediately pushed the accelerator to the floor and Mr. Kellerman said, get out of here.
We rushed up to the police escort and I called to the motorcycle police, Hospital. Mr. Kellerman was calling to the lead automobile on the radio to get to the nearest hospital fast. I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room.

Kellerman who was next to Greer in JFK's Limo original report

I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.
With SA Lawson riding in the police car they quickly formed the accompanying escort for the motorcade around our limousines and sped us through the streets to the emergency entrance of Parkland Memorial Hospital. Sometime during the ride to the hospital while looking back into the car I noticed SA Hill hanging on to the back of the car, laying across the trunk. When we got to the hospital I called to the agents to get two stretchers.

Clint Hill who got off the Queen Mary and leapt onto JFK's Limo, original report.

I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off;" then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy. SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward. I heard ASAIC Kellerman call SA Lawson on the two-way radio and say, "To the nearest hospital, quick." I shouted as loud as I could at the Lead car, "To the hospital, to the hospital."

Mrs. Connally who was immediately behind Greer in JFK's Limo, WC testimony.

Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."
Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.
Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both.
Mr. SPECTER How fast do you think he was going?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast. We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat.

Jacqueline Kennedy who was beside her husband in the rear seat in JFK's Limo WC testimony

Mr. RANKIN. And did you stop at any time after the shots, or proceed about the same way?
Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't know, because--I don't think we stopped. But there was such confusion. And I was down in the car and everyone was yelling to get to the hospital and you could hear them on the radio, and then suddenly I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off.
Mr. RANKIN. And then from there you proceeded as rapidly as possible to the hospital, is that right?
Mrs. KENNEDY. Yes.

Hickey in the follow up Queen Mary had his AR-15 ready close at hand and wasn't afraid to use it!



At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the rear. At this point the cars were passing under the over-pass and as a result we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR 15 rifle ready as we proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital.
Agent Clint Hill was riding across the rear and the top of IOOX in a horizontal position. He looked into the rear of IOOX and turned toward 679X and shook his head several times. I received the impression that the President at the least was very seriously injured. A few moments later shift leader Emory Roberts turned to the rest of us in the car and said words to the effect that when we arrive at the hospital some of us would have to give additional protection to the Vice President and take him to a place of safety. He assigned two of the agents in the car to this duty. I was told to have the AR 15 ready for use if needed.

Not one of them describe a STOP of any kind and why would they STOP especially since there was a medical emergency in which shot men needed URGENT medical attention right NOW! Please note, I normally don't capitalize words randomly but Royell seems to get off on it!

How about we examine the time it took to arrive at Parkland which according to Google was a little under four miles and let's see if they had enough time to STOP and  have a spot of tea?



Sorrels said they got to Parkland as fast as they could which probably means they didn't stop and then Sorrels went back to Dealey Plaza and said the round trip was about twenty minutes.

Mr. STERN - What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS - We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long. And we came back as fast as we could.

Lawson says they arrived at Parkland about 4 minutes later.

Upon our arrival there at approximately 12:34 p.m., I rushed into the emergency entrance, met persons coming with two stretchers and helped rush them outside. Governor Connally was being removed from the car when the stretchers arrived and he was placed on the first one.

Curry says to take them to Parkland "immediatley" which probably means not stopping and later in his testimony he says a little after 12:30

I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency

Mr. HUBERT - Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the time you arrived there?
Mr. CURRY - It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital'-30 minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that would have been around a little after I :15, I believe.

Clint Hill says they got there about 4 minutes after the shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. HILL. In time or--
Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance.
Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea.
Mr. SPECTER. How about time?
Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes.

Greer just had instructions to go FAST and broadly estimated 6 or 8 minutes or in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes.

Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest hospital fast."

Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until you arrived at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it would probably be 6 or 8 minutes, I am not too sure, somewhere in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that.

Greer also says he had no idea where Parkland and needed the Lead Car to take them there which is more support that Curry and crew in the Lead Car were there and didn't go "Poof"!

Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Kellerman said after Kennedy and Connally were in emergency the time was either 12:38 or 12:41.

I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Mr. Behn."
Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said--his name is Gerald Behn--and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The President, the Governor have been shot, We are in the emergency room of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am sorry--Washington time.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn?
Mr. KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day.

How about the Doctors?

Dr McClelland said he got to Emergency about 12:40

Mr. SPECTER - And what action, if any, did you take following that notification?
Dr. McCLELLAND - Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been taken immediately upon arrival.
Mr. SPECTER - And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency Room 1?
Dr. McCLELLAND - This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate or estimate, rather, about 12:40.

Dr Carrico said that shortly after 12:30 he heard that the President had been shot and was on his way and 2 minutes or less later the President arrived.

Mr. SPECTER - Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the way to the hospital at approximately 12:30?
Dr. CARRICO - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - In which President Kennedy was involved?
Dr. CARRICO - At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and was on his way to the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to what time it was when you received that call?
Dr. CARRICO - This was probably shortly after 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER - And how long after that call was received did the President's party actually arrive at Parkland?
Dr. CARRICO - An estimation would be 2 minutes or less.

Dr Baxter got to Emergency about 12:40

Mr. Specter - And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called to render such assistance?
Dr. Baxter - I was conducting the student health service in the hours of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency room, having been shot.
I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there.
Mr. Specter - Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room?
Dr. Baxter - I think it was 12:40--thereabouts.

Dr Jenkins said he arrived at Emergency about 12:30-12:35 to 12:40.

Mr. SPECTER - At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room
Dr. JENKINS - Oh, this was around 12:30-12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the clock closely and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit.

CONCLUSION

No one says they STOPPED in fact most indicated the exact opposite, that speed was of the essence. Across the board, the times seem pretty consistent and under the circumstances I don't think they would stop, or had enough time to stop. Royell's suggestion was that Kennedy's Limo stopped to retrieve weapons from the trunk, even though Royell claims they were already armed with handguns, to me that doesn't pass the sniff test.
So while we eagerly await Royell's proof we are stuck with logic and common sense!

JohnM ........................... (end of quote)

[Royell Storing]

 You do realize there is film footage of the Lead Car vs Motorcycle Officer Chaney trailing well behind it? Just how fast do you believe Officer Chaney would have to go in order to make up this vast distance between Him and the Lead Car as it led the JFK Limo to Parkland Hospital? And then once Chaney caught up to the Lead Car, how fast would both be and the Lead Car be going at that point? And just how would Curry and Chaney then conduct a conversation while traveling at that speed amidst the Lead Car trail blazing the race to Parkland Hospital? Think it through.

[Royell Storing]

   We discussed this very issue at length on this Forum something like 5 yrs ago. I am currently working/researching a couple other JFK Assassination issues, so I do Not have a lot of time to cover old ground. That said, I realize that some of you are relatively new to the JFK Assassination and issues such as the JFK Limo stopping at some point before reaching Parkland Hospital. Therefore, I will take this short time to help you gain some JFK Assassination Knowledge.

                                          - SA WINSTON LAWSON WC TESTIMONY -  (seated inside the LEAD CAR)

                SA LAWSON - "........so that on the route from the Trade Mart to Parkland Hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some STOPPING OF CARS and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the sirens and horns to get through."

                                           - SA FORREST SORRELS WC TESTIMONY - (seated inside the LEAD CAR)

               SA SORRELS - "And in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the RIGHT-HAND SIDE......."

                                 Do you believe that Chief Curry, (who was driving the Lead Car), and Motorcycle Officer Chaney with both traveling at an extremely high speed, were having their conversation while screaming through/across the car? 

                 

                   

[John Mytton]

   We discussed this very issue at length on this Forum something like 5 yrs ago. I am currently working/researching a couple other JFK Assassination issues, so I do Not have a lot of time to cover old ground. That said, I realize that some of you are relatively new to the JFK Assassination and issues such as the JFK Limo stopping at some point before reaching Parkland Hospital. Therefore, I will take this short time to help you gain some JFK Assassination Knowledge.

                                          - SA WINSTON LAWSON WC TESTIMONY -  (seated inside the LEAD CAR)

                SA LAWSON - "........so that on the route from the Trade Mart to Parkland Hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some STOPPING OF CARS and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the sirens and horns to get through."

                                           - SA FORREST SORRELS WC TESTIMONY - (seated inside the LEAD CAR)

               SA SORRELS - "And in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the RIGHT-HAND SIDE......."

                                 Do you believe that Chief Curry, (who was driving the Lead Car), and Motorcycle Officer Chaney with both traveling at an extremely high speed, were having their conversation while screaming through/across the car? 
                                   

- SA WINSTON LAWSON WC TESTIMONY -  (seated inside the LEAD CAR)

                SA LAWSON - "........so that on the route from the Trade Mart to Parkland Hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some STOPPING OF CARS and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the sirens and horns to get through."

You can't be serious.
He doesn't say that he stopped his car, he says as he was driving they were blowing the cars in front with horns and sirens, and at the same time they were waving away the cars in front with their arms out the windows which caused "Cars" plural to stop.
Personally if I driving while I was in front of a car which was approaching fast from behind, blasting it's sirens and horns with the passengers frantically waving out the windows I would pull over and get out of the way, what would you do?

                                   

       - SA FORREST SORRELS WC TESTIMONY - (seated inside the LEAD CAR)

               SA SORRELS - "And in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the RIGHT-HAND SIDE......."

                                 Do you believe that Chief Curry, (who was driving the Lead Car), and Motorcycle Officer Chaney with both traveling at an extremely high speed, were having their conversation while screaming through/across the car?

Here's the extent of the of the 8 word conversation that you conveniently left out;

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?"
He said, "Yes."
He said, "Lead us to the hospital."

You are so dishonest, but whatever it takes, eh Royell!

Btw is the best you got??

JohnM

[Royell Storing]

You can't be serious.
He doesn't say that he stopped his car, he says as he was driving they were blowing the cars in front with horns and sirens, and at the same time they were waving away the cars in front with their arms out the windows which caused "Cars" plural to stop.
Personally if I driving while I was in front of a car which was approaching fast from behind, blasting it's sirens and horns with the passengers frantically waving out the windows I would pull over and get out of the way, what would you do?

                                   
Here's the extent of the of the 8 word conversation that you conveniently left out;

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?"
He said, "Yes."
He said, "Lead us to the hospital."

You are so dishonest, but whatever it takes, eh Royell!

Btw is the best you got??

JohnM

                 "WE had to do some STOPPING of cars..............".  "STOPPING of cars..." means what to you? STOPPING is crystal clear. 
                  You're defeating your own argument when you say, "I would PULL OVER AND GET OUT OF THE WAY". This is the LEAD Car we are talking about. It is leading the JFK Limo/Motorcade to Parkland Hospital. If it PULLS OVER, those behind it also PULL OVER. You are now supporting a STOP!

[John Mytton]

                 "WE had to do some STOPPING of cars..............".  "STOPPING of cars..." means what to you? STOPPING is crystal clear. 
                  You're defeating your own argument when you say, "I would PULL OVER AND GET OUT OF THE WAY". This is the LEAD Car we are talking about. It is leading the JFK Limo/Motorcade to Parkland Hospital. If it PULLS OVER, those behind it also PULL OVER. You are now supporting a STOP!

Huh? I was clearly hypothesizing, if I was just an ordinary citizen driving along and from behind I was approached by a noisy gesticulating car I would pull over. Get it now?

JohnM

[Royell Storing]

Huh? I was clearly hypothesizing, if I was just an ordinary citizen driving along and from behind I was approached by a noisy gesticulating car I would pull over. Get it now?

JohnM

   Yeah, I get it. You now agree with my JFK Limo STOP.

[John Mytton]

   Yeah, I get it. You now agree with my JFK Limo STOP.

Yep you caught me out.

If I was driving in my beat up Ford Falcon along the Pacific Highway, and an an Emergency vehicle in an obvious hurry pulls up behind me with flashing lights, blazing horn, ear piercing sirens and there were arms flailing about out the windows, I would stop and pull over and I'd expect the Emergency vehicle to also stop, then we'd shoot the breeze, have a ciggy and crack open a beer.

JohnM