The 3 Minute Lie

[Dan O'meara]

This came up on another thread and I'm interested to see how Nutters deal with this issue.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time around 75 seconds.
Five days later, the 25th March, both men testify before the WC and they talk about the time trials.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and reached the first floor in less than 60 seconds. On arriving at the first floor she saw Lovelady and Shelley there as she crossed the floor, heading for the Houston Street loading dock door.
The results of the time trials are firmly established by this point and there is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the area around the elevators.

Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the Baker/Truly time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the timings of Shelley and Lovelady (contradicting the Truly/Baker time trials) to undermine the testimony of Adams!!
This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor.

Is there a rational and reasonable explanation in which Shelley and Lovelady are not lying and the Commission isn't using these lies to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams?

[Andrew Mason]

Is there a rational and reasonable explanation in which Shelley and Lovelady are not lying and the Commission isn't using these lies to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams?

Sure.  We know that Lovelady and Shelley were standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the shots.  Shelley said (22Nov63 DPD statement CE2003 24H226) that after the shots he ran across the street to the "corner of the park" (which in his WC testimony made it clear that he crossed the side-street in front of the TSBD to the sidewalk on the north side of the motorcade route:

where he met Gloria Calvery who was crying as she returned to the TSBD.  Shelley said he then entered the TSBD and made a phone call to his wife, which he would have made from his first floor office.  So, if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock, Shelly had already walked across the street, met Glora Calvery coming to the TSBD from farther along the sidewalk (she was standing between the Thornton and Stemmons signs), crossed back to the NE corner of Houston and Elm, walked to the back of the TSBD, walked up the steps to the loading dock entrance door and walked to his office:


Since Vicki Adams came down to the first floor at the time Shelley was crossing the first floor, it took her long enough to get there after the shots as it took Shelley to:
1. cross Elm
2. meet Gloria Calvery coming back from a point about 100 ft farther along the sidewalk.
3. cross back to the corner of Elm and Houston
4. walk the distance of the TSBD + loading platform along Houston
5. walk half the width of the TSBD to the steps of the loading dock
6. walk up the steps and enter the building and start walking across the floor to his office.

[Martin Weidmann]

Sure.  We know that Lovelady and Shelley were standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the shots.  Shelley said (22Nov63 DPD statement CE2003 24H226) that after the shots he ran across the street to the "corner of the park" (which in his WC testimony made it clear that he crossed the side-street in front of the TSBD to the sidewalk on the north side of the motorcade route:

where he met Gloria Calvery who was crying as she returned to the TSBD.  Shelley said he then entered the TSBD and made a phone call to his wife, which he would have made from his first floor office.  So, if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock, Shelly had already walked across the street, met Glora Calvery coming to the TSBD from farther along the sidewalk (she was standing between the Thornton and Stemmons signs), crossed back to the NE corner of Houston and Elm, walked to the back of the TSBD, walked up the steps to the loading dock entrance door and walked to his office:


Since Vicki Adams came down to the first floor at the time Shelley was crossing the first floor, it took her long enough to get there after the shots as it took Shelley to:
1. cross Elm
2. meet Gloria Calvery coming back from a point about 100 ft farther along the sidewalk.
3. cross back to the corner of Elm and Houston
4. walk the distance of the TSBD + loading platform along Houston
5. walk half the width of the TSBD to the steps of the loading dock
6. walk up the steps and enter the building and start walking across the floor to his office.

Perhaps you should have read Dan's posts in the other thread before you answered, Andrew

Btw, Shelley and Lovelady never stated they entered the 1st floor at the loading dock. They said they used the door at the west side of the building. And Dan argues that was a lie.

[Dan O'meara]

Sure.  We know that Lovelady and Shelley were standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the shots.  Shelley said (22Nov63 DPD statement CE2003 24H226) that after the shots he ran across the street to the "corner of the park" (which in his WC testimony made it clear that he crossed the side-street in front of the TSBD to the sidewalk on the north side of the motorcade route:

where he met Gloria Calvery who was crying as she returned to the TSBD.  Shelley said he then entered the TSBD and made a phone call to his wife, which he would have made from his first floor office.  So, if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock, Shelly had already walked across the street, met Glora Calvery coming to the TSBD from farther along the sidewalk (she was standing between the Thornton and Stemmons signs), crossed back to the NE corner of Houston and Elm, walked to the back of the TSBD, walked up the steps to the loading dock entrance door and walked to his office:


Since Vicki Adams came down to the first floor at the time Shelley was crossing the first floor, it took her long enough to get there after the shots as it took Shelley to:
1. cross Elm
2. meet Gloria Calvery coming back from a point about 100 ft farther along the sidewalk.
3. cross back to the corner of Elm and Houston
4. walk the distance of the TSBD + loading platform along Houston
5. walk half the width of the TSBD to the steps of the loading dock
6. walk up the steps and enter the building and start walking across the floor to his office.

Okay...I'm really struggling with this. There is definitely something I'm missing so just help me fully understand what you're saying here.
1.] After the last shot Shelley crosses the Elm Street extension (not Elm Street) to the concrete 'spur' that has the traffic light on it - is that what you're saying, because I agree with that if that's what you're actually saying.
2.] At this point (the 'spur') he meets Gloria running the other way from her position down on Elm Street where she could actually see JFK's head explode. Approximately 100 ft from the position she meets Shelley on the concrete 'spur'.

3.] this is where you are losing me. You seem to be saying that someone goes to the corner of Elm and Houston. Do you mean Shelley or Gloria or both of them. Where are you coming up with the idea that anyone has moved to the corner of Elm and Houston? What testimony are you basing this on? I'm genuinely baffled.

4.] I've completely lost it here. You seem to be saying that whoever has moved to the corner of Elm and Houston now moves down the length of the TSBD building on Houston Street and across the loading dock.
I literally have no idea what you're talking about.
Is this backed up by any kind of testimonial evidence? Does anyone report anything even remotely like this? Are Shelley and Lovelady together as they seem to be in almost every report they make? Is it just Shelley? What's going on? What happened to Gloria?

Is this something you have made up out of thin air with zero evidence to back it up? If it is, it's really important you state that.
Is this just pure speculation on your behalf?
If it is, that's ok, it's just that speculation does need to be backed up with some kind of evidence. At least I think it does.
How does any of what you're proposing fit in with the known testimony of Shelley or Lovelady?
When did they see Baker and Truly during this scenario?

LATER EDIT: I've just noticed something in your post. You wrote:

"...if Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock..."

Where are you getting the idea from that Vicki "saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor after entering through the loading dock."?
What is making you think Adams saw these men after they entered through the loading dock door. Nobody has said this happened or anything even remotely like it. Where are you getting this idea from? What makes you think Lovelady and Shelley had just entered through the loading dock door when Adams saw them? Where are you getting that idea from?

EVEN LATER EDIT: What has any of this got to do with the topic of this thread - the 3 minute lie Shelley and Lovelady sold to the Commission who eagerly swallowed it down.
You could not have written a more confusing post if you'd spent a decade working on it.

[Dan O'meara]

170+ views of this thread.
Doubtless by many of the forum's Nutters.
Apart from the very confused post by Andrew...silence.
Not really surprising as this is an insurmountable problem for those who believe wholeheartedly in the integrity of the Warren Commission.

The way the Commission handles this issue is disgraceful.
On page 152 of the report, the Baker/Truly time trials are mentioned:

"In an effort to determine whether Oswald could have descended to the lunchroom from the sixth floor by the time Baker and Truly arrived, Commission counsel asked Baker and Truly to repeat their movements from the time of the shot until Baker came upon Oswald in the lunchroom. Baker placed himself on a motorcycle about 200 feet from the corner of Elm and Houston Streets where he said he heard the shots. Truly stood in front of the building. At a given signal, they reenacted the event. Baker's movements were timed with a stopwatch. On the first test, the elapsed time between the simulated first shot and Baker's arrival on the second-floor stair landing was 1 minute and 30 seconds. The second test run required 1 minute and 15 seconds."

On page 154, just a few paragraphs later, Vicki Adams is thrown under the bus;

"Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up..."

The speed of her descent is acknowledged as is her witnessing of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. Does this mean there was something amiss with the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady who, according to their own accounts, could never have been in that location so quickly? Of course not. Their accounts are fully accepted but the fact that these accounts contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials is completely glossed over:

"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calverly, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They reentered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."

Two things to note:
Firstly, no mention of the 3 minute lie. It is conspicuously absent. This isn't surprising as the Truly/Baker time trials have been dealt with a few paragraphs earlier and the times were given - 90 and 75 seconds. How can they then have Shelley and Lovelady testifying that Baker and Truly were still outside the building three minutes after the shooting?
The Commission is more than happy to use the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to contradict the testimony of Adams but not to contradict the time trials.
Secondly, there's this sentence - "On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams."
This is an out-and-out lie. Lovelady said nothing of the sort. In fact, he said the opposite, that he couldn't say it was Vicki.

The Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about how quickly Baker and Truly entered the building.
The 3 minute lie contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials yet this was completely ignored.
Worse than that, the Commission then used this lie to contradict Adams' testimony.
And if that wasn't enough, it then lied about Lovelady's testimony in order to make sure Adams was fully discredited.

How Nutters can suck all this up without flinching is really telling.

[Jack Nessan]

170+ views of this thread.
Doubtless by many of the forum's Nutters.
Apart from the very confused post by Andrew...silence.
Not really surprising as this is an insurmountable problem for those who believe wholeheartedly in the integrity of the Warren Commission.

The way the Commission handles this issue is disgraceful.
On page 152 of the report, the Baker/Truly time trials are mentioned:

"In an effort to determine whether Oswald could have descended to the lunchroom from the sixth floor by the time Baker and Truly arrived, Commission counsel asked Baker and Truly to repeat their movements from the time of the shot until Baker came upon Oswald in the lunchroom. Baker placed himself on a motorcycle about 200 feet from the corner of Elm and Houston Streets where he said he heard the shots. Truly stood in front of the building. At a given signal, they reenacted the event. Baker's movements were timed with a stopwatch. On the first test, the elapsed time between the simulated first shot and Baker's arrival on the second-floor stair landing was 1 minute and 30 seconds. The second test run required 1 minute and 15 seconds."

On page 154, just a few paragraphs later, Vicki Adams is thrown under the bus;

"Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up..."

The speed of her descent is acknowledged as is her witnessing of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor. Does this mean there was something amiss with the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady who, according to their own accounts, could never have been in that location so quickly? Of course not. Their accounts are fully accepted but the fact that these accounts contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials is completely glossed over:

"Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they were watching the parade from the top step of the building entrance when Gloria Calverly, who works in the Depository Building, ran up and said that the President had been shot. Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They reentered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance? On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well."

Two things to note:
Firstly, no mention of the 3 minute lie. It is conspicuously absent. This isn't surprising as the Truly/Baker time trials have been dealt with a few paragraphs earlier and the times were given - 90 and 75 seconds. How can they then have Shelley and Lovelady testifying that Baker and Truly were still outside the building three minutes after the shooting?
The Commission is more than happy to use the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to contradict the testimony of Adams but not to contradict the time trials.
Secondly, there's this sentence - "On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams."
This is an out-and-out lie. Lovelady said nothing of the sort. In fact, he said the opposite, that he couldn't say it was Vicki.

The Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about how quickly Baker and Truly entered the building.
The 3 minute lie contradicted the Baker/Truly time trials yet this was completely ignored.
Worse than that, the Commission then used this lie to contradict Adams' testimony.
And if that wasn't enough, it then lied about Lovelady's testimony in order to make sure Adams was fully discredited.

How Nutters can suck all this up without flinching is really telling.

The reason Shelley thought it was 3 or 4 minutes is because that is how much time Shelley thought it took for Calvery to get from where she was watching the parade to where he was standing on the steps. If you have a better time estimate you would rather use, feel free to use your time estimate instead.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

 
The real question is how can you continually miss these statements that explain why? It would have to be because you start from a position with a pre-conceived idea. Why else would there be this constant reference to Nutters?

[Dan O'meara]

The reason Shelley thought it was 3 or 4 minutes is because that is how much time Shelley thought it took for Calvery to get from where she was watching the parade to where he was standing on the steps. If you have a better time estimate you would rather use, feel free to use your time estimate instead.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

 
The real question is how can you continually miss these statements that explain why? It would have to be because you start from a position with a pre-conceived idea. Why else would there be this constant reference to Nutters?

As usual, you've completely missed the point of the thread.
In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.
Both men testify that they were on the steps when the shots occurred and they stayed there until Gloria came running up to them (even though, in his same-day affidavit Shelley was clear that he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete spur that divides the two Elm Streets, where he met Gloria, and then came back to the building).
Both men testify that after Gloria tells them the President was shot they both ran across to the concrete spur (curiously both men use the exact phrase, "that little, old island", to describe the spur).
Both men testify that after they have left the steps they notice Baker and Truly in the process of entering the building.

I'm sure you don't need this spelling out but this means both men are testifying that at least three minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside the TSBD building.
That's the point!
Less than three weeks earlier the Baker/Truly time trials had taken place. Two attempts to recreate how long it took for Baker and Truly to get to the second floor after the shots. The results were 90 seconds and 75 seconds.
So, by the time Shelley and Lovelady testified, the results of the time trials were well known by the WC. They had been firmly established.
But then Shelley and Lovelady come along and both men testify that, in effect, Baker and Truly were still outside three minutes after the shots were fired!
This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
The WC let these lies stand, unchallenged. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Worse than that, even though these timings contradicted the time trials, the WC still included them to discredit Adams' testimony. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Even worse than that, the WC then covered up for these lies in their conclusions. Fact, not preconceived idea.

As a good little Nutter you won't see anything wrong with any of this.
Even though the Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that both men were lying about their timings.

Here's a simple question for you that will test how much of a Nutter you are:

How long do you think it took for Baker to reach the foot of the front steps of the TSBD building?

[Jack Nessan]

As usual, you've completely missed the point of the thread.
In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.
Both men testify that they were on the steps when the shots occurred and they stayed there until Gloria came running up to them (even though, in his same-day affidavit Shelley was clear that he ran across the Elm street extension to the concrete spur that divides the two Elm Streets, where he met Gloria, and then came back to the building).
Both men testify that after Gloria tells them the President was shot they both ran across to the concrete spur (curiously both men use the exact phrase, "that little, old island", to describe the spur).
Both men testify that after they have left the steps they notice Baker and Truly in the process of entering the building.

I'm sure you don't need this spelling out but this means both men are testifying that at least three minutes after the shots Baker and Truly are still outside the TSBD building.
That's the point!
Less than three weeks earlier the Baker/Truly time trials had taken place. Two attempts to recreate how long it took for Baker and Truly to get to the second floor after the shots. The results were 90 seconds and 75 seconds.
So, by the time Shelley and Lovelady testified, the results of the time trials were well known by the WC. They had been firmly established.
But then Shelley and Lovelady come along and both men testify that, in effect, Baker and Truly were still outside three minutes after the shots were fired!
This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
The WC let these lies stand, unchallenged. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Worse than that, even though these timings contradicted the time trials, the WC still included them to discredit Adams' testimony. This is a fact, not a preconceived idea.
Even worse than that, the WC then covered up for these lies in their conclusions. Fact, not preconceived idea.

As a good little Nutter you won't see anything wrong with any of this.
Even though the Darnell footage proves beyond any reasonable doubt that both men were lying about their timings.

Here's a simple question for you that will test how much of a Nutter you are:

How long do you think it took for Baker to reach the foot of the front steps of the TSBD building?

Shelley stated he thought it was 3 or 4 minutes because that is how long he thought it took for Calvery to travel from where she was to where he was. Maybe the time trial should have been on her.

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.