The 3 Minute Lie

[Andrew Mason]

I have to say, Andrew, that you are clearly unfamiliar with the WC testimonies of both Shelley and Lovelady.
The points you make in this post have no basis in fact, or anything for that matter.

They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests.  My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion. 

There are a couple of key points that need addressing here.
The first is the erroneous suggestion that Ball is somehow 'leading' Shelley and Lovelady, that they are going along with what Ball is 'suggesting'.
You then do a complete 180 degrees by insinuating Ball is somehow "confused" by what Shelley and Lovelady are saying!
How could he be confused by the witnesses if he is the one leading the witnesses?

That is not what happened.  From Lovelady's earlier statement Ball should have known that Lovelady was not saying that he stood on the steps for three minutes.  He said that they immediately ran towards the Presidential car but it sped away toward the triple underpass. Shelley also said that they ran across the street where they met Gloria Calvery.  Neither man had said in prior statements that they met her on the steps. If Ball had understood their previous statements he would have known that there was a huge inconsistency between what they said initially and what he was suggesting (that they met Gloria C. on the steps before they ran across the street) and he would have asked them to explain their previous statements. He didn't. That tells me he did not fully grasp what they had said on previous occasions. And he did it by leading the witnesses eg:

"Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria. did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Not that it matters as both points are figments of your imagination.
It is telling that you make these claims yet don't provide any testimonial evidence to back these claims up.
Is that because you know how empty these claims are?

Unlike you, I will provide the testimonial evidence demonstrating how wrong you are.
Firstly, your claim that Lovelady and Shelley somehow "confused" Ball into "thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps"

Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

There is nothing ambiguous about this piece of testimony.

Yes there is.  He did not say there that Gloria came running up to them while there were on the steps.  He said that is when it first occurred to him that the President had been shot.

Lovelady is stating, with clarity, that he was on the steps until Gloria showed up. He is not tricked into this or following up on some kind of 'suggestion'. He offers this information freely and without any provocation.
There is nothing in the slightest bit confusing about what Lovelady is saying here.

Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?

Ball has established that Shelley was stood on the top of the steps when the shooting occurred.

Yes. So far there is no contradiction to what they said before.

Shelley describes the noises of the shots and Ball asks him what happened next:

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

This is not a leading question and there can be zero doubt as to what Shelley is saying in this part of his testimony - he was stood on the steps when the shots occurred after which Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps. From the steps he and Lovelady headed across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".

That is not a leading question but the damage had been done previously.  If Ball had been properly prepared, he would have known about the previous inconsistent statements and raised the inconsistencies in an effort to resolve them.  I am not blaming Ball for anything. They were very busy and working on tight timelines on one of the largest cases in history. This kind of thing happens all the time in trials. But then you have opposing counsel who may point out and try to resolve the contradiction.

There is absolutely no confusion. Ball is under the impression that they met Gloria when they we're on the steps because that is exactly what both Shelley and Lovelady state in their testimonies. There are no leading questions. They offer this information freely and it is unambiguous. There is no confusion.
You really should familiarise yourself with the testimonial evidence before making these unfounded claims.

You are overlooking their previous statements which are inconsistent with them meeting Gloria C. on the TSBD steps.  We would have a much better idea of what they saw if they had been asked to explain the contradiction with their earlier statements. Unfortunately that did not occur because of Mr. Ball not recognizing the contradiction. If he had, he would have asked them to explain it.

And the idea that Ball somehow suggested the "3 Minute Lie" and that Shelley and Lovelady just went along with it, is even more ill informed:

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Ball asks a straight-forward question. He makes no kind of 'suggestion' as to how long it should be. Lovelady offers up this lie freely, he is not guided in any way.

He does not say that she came up to them while they were standing on the steps.

Mr. Ball: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. Shelley: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Again, Shelley is asked a perfectly straight-forward question. There is nothing leading about it. And he answers it in a straight-forward manner.

It's unfortunate to say, but your claims that these men were somehow just following Ball's suggestions or that Ball was somehow confused, are either dishonest or just plain ignorant.

I am saying that Ball was confused and did not try to reconcile their answers to his questions with their previous statements.  The witness is testifying about events that took place 6 months earlier and may not have read over their earlier statements to refresh their memory. Memories can change on small details like time intervals.  Ball obviously thought there was nothing inconsistent with their previous statements and then proceeded to ask questions based on the faulty premise that they had met Gloria C. on the TSBD front steps before they ran across the street. Lovelady said they ran after the president's car but it sped away.  I don't think they ran after it 3+ minutes after the shots.

"They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was running from farther down Elm."

This is just plain ignorance of the various testimonies.

"from the beginning" refers to 22Nov63. 

At no point before his WC testimony did Lovelady say he met Gloria after crossing Elm Street. This is so basic I shouldn't have to be pointing it out.
The point is that, in his WC testimony, Shelley completely changes this sequence of events. In his affidavit he makes it clear that he ran across the Elm Street extension after the shots and he met Gloria there. In his WC testimony, he now clearly states that he was on the steps when Gloria ran up to him and Lovelady.
The only reason to change this sequence of events I can see is to add the 3 Minute Lie. He has changed his original story.

Or they had not retained those fine details by April 1964 and had not been reminded of what they said 6 months earlier.  You cannot accuse them of lying when they were not asked to explain their original statements.

In Lovelady's same-day affidavit he never left the steps but now, in his WC testimony, after hearing from Gloria, he races across to "that little, old island" with Shelley. The problem is, we already know from his affidavit, Shelley ran across there before Gloria got to the steps.
The Lie is falling apart.

You are the only one suggesting it is a lie. They were never confronted with their previous inconsistent statements. If they had, they may have said "oh, yeah. That's right.  We met Gloria C. farther down along Elm after we crossed the street. That's right, I remember running down Elm immediately after the shots trying to see the President's car but it sped away.  So, I saw Truly and the officer enter when I left the steps which was maybe a few seconds after the shots."  But because Ball did not realize the inconsistency, he never asked the questions.

To some extent it is based on Shelley and Lovelady's statements.

To what extent is your timing of Adams' movements based on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady. What other testimonies are you basing it on?

It is based on their earlier statements in which they said that they went across the street and down toward the railway tracks and then back along the west side of the TSBD and in the back loading dock door where Victoria Adams saw them as they crossed the floor.  During that time, Truly and Baker had entered the building and had gone up to the second floor lunch room where they met Oswald.  Adams did not see Oswald but she saw Shelley and Lovelady immediately after coming down the stairs from the fourth floor.  That could not possibly have been before Truly and Baker met Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room.

Do you even know what the Stroud document is?

I gather it is the hearsay document provided by one of the WC counsel, Martha Stroud.  There is a copy of it in The Girl on the Stairs in case you are inclined to let others know where to find it.
It states that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker come up the stairs after Adams went down.  We don't have that from Garner.  So it is hearsay.  How reliable was Stroud in restating what Garner may have said?  How reliable is the typist in accurately stating what Stroud dicatated? or how careful Stroud was in reviewing the letter before signing? We have no idea. We do know that she signed a letter that  misspelled David Belin's name.  What did Garner actually see? We don't know.  Maybe she meant that she saw a policeman come up the stairs and Stroud assumed that it was the policeman with Truly.  Garner stayed on the fourth floor after all and did not spend all her time near the stairs.

There is no serious doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination. The 3 Minute Lie is proof of this.
The Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and their own affidavits prove they lied
It is hard to decide whether you are being dishonest with your spurious claims or you are simply ignorant of the evidence.
In future it would be courteous to at least provide at least a scrap of evidence to support your misguided claims.

Only you think they lied.

[Dan O'meara]

That is not what happened.  From Lovelady's earlier statement Ball should have known that Lovelady was not saying that he stood on the steps for three minutes.  He said that they immediately ran towards the Presidential car but it sped away toward the triple underpass. Shelley also said that they ran across the street where they met Gloria Calvery.  Neither man had said in prior statements that they met her on the steps. If Ball had understood their previous statements he would have known that there was a huge inconsistency between what they said initially and what he was suggesting (that they met Gloria C. on the steps before they ran across the street) and he would have asked them to explain their previous statements. He didn't. That tells me he did not fully grasp what they had said on previous occasions. And he did it by leading the witnesses eg:

"Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria. did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.
Yes there is.  He did not say there that Gloria came running up to them while there were on the steps.  He said that is when it first occurred to him that the President had been shot. Yes. So far there is no contradiction to what they said before.
That is not a leading question but the damage had been done previously.  If Ball had been properly prepared, he would have known about the previous inconsistent statements and raised the inconsistencies in an effort to resolve them.  I am not blaming Ball for anything. They were very busy and working on tight timelines on one of the largest cases in history. This kind of thing happens all the time in trials. But then you have opposing counsel who may point out and try to resolve the contradiction.
You are overlooking their previous statements which are inconsistent with them meeting Gloria C. on the TSBD steps.  We would have a much better idea of what they saw if they had been asked to explain the contradiction with their earlier statements. Unfortunately that did not occur because of Mr. Ball not recognizing the contradiction. If he had, he would have asked them to explain it.
He does not say that she came up to them while they were standing on the steps. I am saying that Ball was confused and did not try to reconcile their answers to his questions with their previous statements.  The witness is testifying about events that took place 6 months earlier and may not have read over their earlier statements to refresh their memory. Memories can change on small details like time intervals.  Ball obviously thought there was nothing inconsistent with their previous statements and then proceeded to ask questions based on the faulty premise that they had met Gloria C. on the TSBD front steps before they ran across the street. Lovelady said they ran after the president's car but it sped away.  I don't think they ran after it 3+ minutes after the shots."from the beginning" refers to 22Nov63. 
Or they had not retained those fine details by April 1964 and had not been reminded of what they said 6 months earlier.  You cannot accuse them of lying when they were not asked to explain their original statements.You are the only one suggesting it is a lie. They were never confronted with their previous inconsistent statements. If they had, they may have said "oh, yeah. That's right.  We met Gloria C. farther down along Elm after we crossed the street. That's right, I remember running down Elm immediately after the shots trying to see the President's car but it sped away.  So, I saw Truly and the officer enter when I left the steps which was maybe a few seconds after the shots."  But because Ball did not realize the inconsistency, he never asked the questions.
It is based on their earlier statements in which they said that they went across the street and down toward the railway tracks and then back along the west side of the TSBD and in the back loading dock door where Victoria Adams saw them as they crossed the floor.  During that time, Truly and Baker had entered the building and had gone up to the second floor lunch room where they met Oswald.  Adams did not see Oswald but she saw Shelley and Lovelady immediately after coming down the stairs from the fourth floor.  That could not possibly have been before Truly and Baker met Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room.

I gather it is the hearsay document provided by one of the WC counsel, Martha Stroud.  There is a copy of it in The Girl on the Stairs in case you are inclined to let others know where to find it.
It states that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker come up the stairs after Adams went down.  We don't have that from Garner.  So it is hearsay.  How reliable was Stroud in restating what Garner may have said?  How reliable is the typist in accurately stating what Stroud dicatated? or how careful Stroud was in reviewing the letter before signing? We have no idea. We do know that she signed a letter that  misspelled David Belin's name.  What did Garner actually see? We don't know.  Maybe she meant that she saw a policeman come up the stairs and Stroud assumed that it was the policeman with Truly.  Garner stayed on the fourth floor after all and did not spend all her time near the stairs.
Only you think they lied.

The first thing to do is to get you to back off from your unfounded assertion that there is some kind of confusion over whether or not Shelley and Lovelady were stood on the front steps when they encountered Gloria Calvery, according to their WC testimonies.
When we look at their WC testimonies we see that both men are absolutely unequivocal about this point.
It is a fact that both men testify to the following sequence of events:
1] They were stood on the steps when the shooting happened.
2] They had not moved from the steps by the time Gloria came running up to them.
3] They left the steps heading across the Elm Street extension.
4] They turn and see Truly and Baker still stood outside the building.

Do you agree with this? if not, can you show in their WC testimonies where they say anything different.
The following are excerpts from the WC testimonies of both men demonstrating, beyond any doubt, that they testify to the sequence of events I have laid out.

LOVELADY

Mr. Lovelady: ...I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. Ball: You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. Ball: The top step you were standing there?
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. Lovelady: Yeah.
Mr. Ball: When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. Lovelady: Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street...

Mr. Ball: By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. Lovelady: As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

SHELLEY

Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Shelley: Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Mr. Ball: Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Do you agree with the fact that both men testify to the following sequence of events in their WC testimonies:
1] They were stood on the steps when the shooting happened.
2] They had not moved from the steps by the time Gloria came running up to them.
3] They left the steps heading across the Elm Street extension.
4] They turn and see Truly and Baker still stood outside the building.

You were also asked to what extent you relied on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady when determining how long it took Adams to make it down to the first floor. You implied that you were using evidence other than the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady to make your determination.
What other evidence were you using?

[Jack Nessan]

For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
Don't be so cowardly and just answer the question.
There's an obvious reason why you won't answer it - you're going to make a massive fool of yourself. Again.
It's such a simple question Jack.

It has been proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady lied to the Commission about their movements after the assassination.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage.
It's proven to be a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It's proven to be a lie by their same-day affidavits.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
Lovelady - stayed on the front steps then went back in the building with Shelley.
In their WC statements Gloria runs up to them while they are still at the steps - contradicting Shelley's affidavit.
Then both men run across the street to "that little, old island" - contradicting Lovelady's affidavit.
In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened. Both men were back inside the front of the building within seconds of the shooting.
In further statements, as their lie evolves, Lovelady has them running down to where the limo slowed down and not the railroad yard. Shelley has them accompanying police officers down to the railroad yard where they stay for ten minutes!

The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
According to their WC statements Shelley and Lovelady have already spoken with Gloria and made their way across the Elm Street extension.
How do YOU explain this discrepancy? [Don't bother ducking this question]



Poor old Jack.

The 3 minute lie are you ever going to prove it are just talk all around it and hope I prove it for you?

For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?

I thought it was six and counting but you would be the expert on that count. You can't even explain why it is important. In fact in this whole confused rant, you have yet to make a valid point about a lie.


In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened

In Shelley’s and Lovelady’s affidavits there is no mention of Adams and Styles or Baker and Truly. In Calvery’s affidavit there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady or Baker and Truly. Does that make her a liar as well? Lovelady does not mention Calvery at all. So, if he mentions them in their WC testimonies that makes them liars too? Are you even remotely aware of how many witnesses have similar testimonies? So, exactly what is your point and how does that make them standout as being different than all the other witnesses? How does that prove a 3 minute lie? A lie you seem to be distancing yourself from with every post.

The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.

Seconds? No, it does not, this is an outright fabrication.

No, the Darnell footage shows a cop running to the TSBD. You have consistently stated it does not prove he went inside. Now are you lying now about him running into the building? Where is there any time attributed to the film?

You have taken a photo, created a story around it that only you think is accurate and stating all these people are lying. A photo only you can make out the participants. The interesting part is still how Lovelady and Shelley get in front of Truly and Baker in order to complete this fanciful tale. This whole story depends on Shelley and Lovelady telling the truth about talking to Calvery but also lying about everything else. Can you explain the reason for this odd logic? Maybe start with why are all the people who are lying are in a dead sprint to be where you want them to be.

Guessing and conjecture is all this whole post is about. Not a true fact anywhere. Until I read to you Shelley’s statement about Calvery you did not have an interest in her. Now you believe that part of his statement is undeniable, but the time is a lie. There is a point in time where constant accusations are just part of the endless tripe.

You have not proven anything.

Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.

No, going back into the building is something you just made up. Both Shelley and Lovelady felt it was about a three minutes time span until they spoke with her.

Just curious but are you even capable of an original thought?

 

 

[Dan O'meara]

The 3 minute lie are you ever going to prove it are just talk all around it and hope I prove it for you?

For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?

I thought it was six and counting but you would be the expert on that count. You can't even explain why it is important. In fact in this whole confused rant, you have yet to make a valid point about a lie.


In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened

In Shelley’s and Lovelady’s affidavits there is no mention of Adams and Styles or Baker and Truly. In Calvery’s affidavit there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady or Baker and Truly. Does that make her a liar as well? Lovelady does not mention Calvery at all. So, if he mentions them in their WC testimonies that makes them liars too? Are you even remotely aware of how many witnesses have similar testimonies? So, exactly what is your point and how does that make them standout as being different than all the other witnesses? How does that prove a 3 minute lie? A lie you seem to be distancing yourself from with every post.

The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.

Seconds? No, it does not, this is an outright fabrication.

No, the Darnell footage shows a cop running to the TSBD. You have consistently stated it does not prove he went inside. Now are you lying now about him running into the building? Where is there any time attributed to the film?

You have taken a photo, created a story around it that only you think is accurate and stating all these people are lying. A photo only you can make out the participants. The interesting part is still how Lovelady and Shelley get in front of Truly and Baker in order to complete this fanciful tale. This whole story depends on Shelley and Lovelady telling the truth about talking to Calvery but also lying about everything else. Can you explain the reason for this odd logic? Maybe start with why are all the people who are lying are in a dead sprint to be where you want them to be.

Guessing and conjecture is all this whole post is about. Not a true fact anywhere. Until I read to you Shelley’s statement about Calvery you did not have an interest in her. Now you believe that part of his statement is undeniable, but the time is a lie. There is a point in time where constant accusations are just part of the endless tripe.

You have not proven anything.

Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.

No, going back into the building is something you just made up. Both Shelley and Lovelady felt it was about a three minutes time span until they spoke with her.

Just curious but are you even capable of an original thought?

Oh dear.
What a sad and confused little post this is.
Really not sure why you bother as you constantly end up looking a bit foolish.

I thought it was six and counting but you would be the expert on that count. You can't even explain why it is important. In fact in this whole confused rant, you have yet to make a valid point about a lie.

Don't you remember Jack, it was six and counting regarding the 'untruth' you were telling about how Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett had made statements that refuted Adams' testimony. I simply asked you to provide these statements but you couldn't do that because they don't exist. Rather than admit you'd made it all up you had to keep avoiding the simple question over and over again, making you appear even more silly than if you'd just owned up.
Because you don't know what you're talking about you end up making silly statements and painting yourself into a corner.
And here we are again.
I've asked you a simple question knowing that whatever answer you give is going to make you look foolish. You must have figured that out as well which is why you refuse to answer such a simple question.
If you don't believe me, just answer the question.
So, for the FIFTH time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?

The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.

Seconds? No, it does not, this is an outright fabrication.

No, the Darnell footage shows a cop running to the TSBD. You have consistently stated it does not prove he went inside. Now are you lying now about him running into the building? Where is there any time attributed to the film?

  Wow!!
Even for you this is a next level senior moment.
It appears I'm going to have to hold your hand through this one.
Look at my quotation again. Read it slowly. It says that the Darnell footage shows Baker "reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting".
Reaching the foot
Don't you understand?
There is no mention of Baker "running into the building", as you put it.
Do you understand?
And have you forgotten already - it was you who was saying that the Darnell footage showed Baker entering the building, not me!
It wasn't that long ago.
Here, let me show you the quote, see if it jogs your memory. It's from Reply#339 on the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread:

Why does this even matter? Baker entering the TSBD is on film and is a known time event. Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes.

Don't you remember, I responded by pointing out what a poor grasp of the evidence you have. What an understatement that was.

Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.

No, going back into the building is something you just made up. Both Shelley and Lovelady felt it was about a three minutes time span until they spoke with her.

 
Oh, brother.
This is a summary of Shelley's affidavit in which he states very clearly that he went back inside the building.
Just do some basic research and you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself,
Here is a link to the affidavit, all you have to do is read it:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/

Just curious but are you even capable of an original thought?

Are you capable of any kind of thought?

[Dan O'meara]

The topic of this thread is the 3 minute Lie both Shelley and Lovelady told the WC during their testimonies.
Both men were basically testifying that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the shooting.
This is an easily disprovable lie as we have the Darnell footage which shows Baker reaching the area of the front steps within seconds of the assassination.
It is also proved a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials which had both men entering the building within seconds of the last shot.
The Nutters who believe Shelley and Lovelady didn't lie must accept that the Darnell footage is fake and the Truly/Baker time trials were fake. They must also accept that the encounter with Oswald in the second floor lunchroom 75 seconds after the assassination was also fake and that Oswald was lying to his interrogators when he mentioned it or that his interrogators were lying when they reported Oswald referring to it.
They must also believe the testimony of Victoria Adams is a pack of lies and that Sandra Styles and Dorothy Garner are also liars.
Nutters don't think things through because they think what they're told to think.

So, let's assume the Darnell footage is real, let's assume the Truly/Baker time trials were accurate, let's assume Adams, Styles, Garner, Truly, Baker, and those interrogators who reported Oswald's encounter with Baker aren't all liars.
Let's assume the only people lying are Shelley and Lovelady.
We have the following scenario -
The shots are fired.
Before the limo even reaches the Underpass Adams decides to get downstairs to find out what's going on. She turns to Styles and says, to paraphrase, "Let's go!". Baker sees the pigeons flying off the roof and decides he needs to get to the top of the TSBD building. He pulls up and races towards the TSBD steps, He enters the lobby, followed by Shelley and Lovelady who make their way past him as he tries to find out how to get up the building. Truly shows up to help him and as they are chatting in the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady make their way to the back of the first floor.
Adams and Styles hit the first floor approximately 40 seconds after the last shot, Adams calls out to Shelley and Lovelady about the President but they ignore her. Adams and Styles exit the back door and seconds later Baker and Truly arrive in the same area, where Baker reports seeing two white men just hanging out in that area seconds after the shooting.
Adams and Styles make their way round the building, Baker and Truly make their way up the building.
In this scenario the testimonies of everyone other than Shelley and Lovelady makes sense.
The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.

[Jack Nessan]

Oh dear.
What a sad and confused little post this is.
Really not sure why you bother as you constantly end up looking a bit foolish.Don't you remember Jack, it was six and counting regarding the 'untruth' you were telling about how Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett had made statements that refuted Adams' testimony. I simply asked you to provide these statements but you couldn't do that because they don't exist. Rather than admit you'd made it all up you had to keep avoiding the simple question over and over again, making you appear even more silly than if you'd just owned up.
Because you don't know what you're talking about you end up making silly statements and painting yourself into a corner.
And here we are again.
I've asked you a simple question knowing that whatever answer you give is going to make you look foolish. You must have figured that out as well which is why you refuse to answer such a simple question.
If you don't believe me, just answer the question.
So, for the FIFTH time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?

  Wow!!
Even for you this is a next level senior moment.
It appears I'm going to have to hold your hand through this one.
Look at my quotation again. Read it slowly. It says that the Darnell footage shows Baker "reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting".
Reaching the foot
Don't you understand?
There is no mention of Baker "running into the building", as you put it.
Do you understand?
And have you forgotten already - it was you who was saying that the Darnell footage showed Baker entering the building, not me!
It wasn't that long ago.
Here, let me show you the quote, see if it jogs your memory. It's from Reply#339 on the "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview" thread:

Why does this even matter? Baker entering the TSBD is on film and is a known time event. Adams and Styles "immediately" turned out to be a number of minutes.

Don't you remember, I responded by pointing out what a poor grasp of the evidence you have. What an understatement that was.

 
Oh, brother.
This is a summary of Shelley's affidavit in which he states very clearly that he went back inside the building.
Just do some basic research and you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself,
Here is a link to the affidavit, all you have to do is read it:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337377/
Are you capable of any kind of thought?

Don't you remember Jack, it was six and counting regarding the 'untruth' you were telling about how Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett

Actually, I do remember. It had nothing to do with Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett. Stop trying to lie your way through this, it was all about Calvery. It is hard to take you seriously when you can't be honest about the little things. That is a lie you are telling because those officers completely refuted your whole fantasy story. Harkness, Sawyer, and Barnett give a factual time stamped accounting of the exterior of the TSBD after the shooting, and those timestamps completely refute everything you have posted. No number of false statements on your part can change that.

So, for the FIFTH time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?

Here are your last three fourth time counting posts: All the fourth time. All about Calvery. You can't even be honest about something as simple as this. That explains all the nonsense being posted.

Reply 10- Now then, for the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the steps after the shooting?

Reply 14- For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?



Reply 16- For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?

The last one had emojis with it that look like a post maybe from an adolescent girl. Typical of how you think.

There is no mention of Baker "running into the building", as you put it.
Do you understand?

Understand completely. Now you are stating Baker, Truly, Shelley, and Lovelady all lied about Baker and Truly entering the building, because you can’t understand how they got there, because the Darnell film does not show it.

This is a summary of Shelley's affidavit in which he states very clearly that he went back inside the building.

Oddly for someone who is always making the claim of a superior knowledgeable about the correlation of all these statements to be completely evade this post. Have another try at it.

In Shelley’s and Lovelady’s affidavits there is no mention of Adams and Styles or Baker and Truly. In Calvery’s affidavit there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady or Baker and Truly. Does that make her a liar as well? Lovelady does not mention Calvery at all. So, if he mentions them in their WC testimonies that makes them liars too? Are you even remotely aware of how many witnesses have similar testimonies? So, exactly what is your point and how does that make them standout as being different than all the other witnesses? How does that prove a 3 minute lie? A lie you seem to be distancing yourself from with every post.

[Jack Nessan]

The topic of this thread is the 3 minute Lie both Shelley and Lovelady told the WC during their testimonies.
Both men were basically testifying that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the shooting.
This is an easily disprovable lie as we have the Darnell footage which shows Baker reaching the area of the front steps within seconds of the assassination.
It is also proved a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials which had both men entering the building within seconds of the last shot.
The Nutters who believe Shelley and Lovelady didn't lie must accept that the Darnell footage is fake and the Truly/Baker time trials were fake. They must also accept that the encounter with Oswald in the second floor lunchroom 75 seconds after the assassination was also fake and that Oswald was lying to his interrogators when he mentioned it or that his interrogators were lying when they reported Oswald referring to it.
They must also believe the testimony of Victoria Adams is a pack of lies and that Sandra Styles and Dorothy Garner are also liars.
Nutters don't think things through because they think what they're told to think.

So, let's assume the Darnell footage is real, let's assume the Truly/Baker time trials were accurate, let's assume Adams, Styles, Garner, Truly, Baker, and those interrogators who reported Oswald's encounter with Baker aren't all liars.
Let's assume the only people lying are Shelley and Lovelady.
We have the following scenario -
The shots are fired.
Before the limo even reaches the Underpass Adams decides to get downstairs to find out what's going on. She turns to Styles and says, to paraphrase, "Let's go!". Baker sees the pigeons flying off the roof and decides he needs to get to the top of the TSBD building. He pulls up and races towards the TSBD steps, He enters the lobby, followed by Shelley and Lovelady who make their way past him as he tries to find out how to get up the building. Truly shows up to help him and as they are chatting in the lobby, Shelley and Lovelady make their way to the back of the first floor.
Adams and Styles hit the first floor approximately 40 seconds after the last shot, Adams calls out to Shelley and Lovelady about the President but they ignore her. Adams and Styles exit the back door and seconds later Baker and Truly arrive in the same area, where Baker reports seeing two white men just hanging out in that area seconds after the shooting.
Adams and Styles make their way round the building, Baker and Truly make their way up the building.
In this scenario the testimonies of everyone other than Shelley and Lovelady makes sense.
The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.

The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.

The frightening thing is that actually seems to make sense to you. I guess you think if you say it enough that somehow it magically becomes true. Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting. Repeating these false statements over and over does not change the officers' timestamps.

[Dan O'meara]

The time trials make sense.
The Darnell footage makes sense.
The Dillard picture makes sense.
The Stroud document makes sense.
This mass of interlocking evidence makes sense when we accept the obvious - Shelley and Truly lied about their movements after the assassination.

The frightening thing is that actually seems to make sense to you. I guess you think if you say it enough that somehow it magically becomes true. Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting. Repeating these false statements over and over does not change the officers' timestamps.

Yet another in a long list of senior moments.
You've got the threads mixed up Jack.
I think it's time for your nap. 

But here's a chance for you to avoid yet another simple question over and over again.
You posted that this

Sgt Harkness, Det. Sawyer and Officer Barnett testified to what took place around the building and it completely contradicts what you have been posting

Here's the question:

How does what Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett testified contradict what I've been posting?

Here's your big chance to show what an excellent "researcher" you are.
Are you going to answer this question or run away like you've done time after time?
What's it going to be Jack?