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Author Topic: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17  (Read 12898 times)

Offline Michael Capasse

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2024, 04:31:46 PM »
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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2024, 04:31:46 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2024, 10:00:35 PM »
Martin, it doesn't matter what time people guessed, the eyewitness testimony clearly says that Tippit's murderer was Oswald!

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.


Oswald was also identified holding a gun.

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

Jack Tatum
Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street.


The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.


Oswald even admitted to various law enforcement officers that he was carrying a gun.

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.


JohnM

If you want a serious discussion about this case, then stop being evasive. Eyewitness testimony is the weakest and most unreliable evidence there is. Even more so given the pathetic nature of the line ups. If you want to discuss the eyewitnesses, we can do that in another thread. I'll gladly destroy your fairytale.


The subject of my post has nothing to do with eyewitness testimony. Deal with the subject of my post or stay out of the discussion.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2024, 10:15:27 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2024, 10:05:04 PM »
1. Roberts didn't say Oswald was buttoning up a jacket but specifically testified that Oswald was "zipping up" a jacket.

2. Oswald was positively identified at or moving away from the Tippit crime scene while wearing a jacket.

3. Oswald was arrested without a jacket.

4. Oswald was positively identified as carrying a gun while at or moving away from the Tippit crime scene. Callaway said that while he was in the Marines, he described the way Oswald was holding the gun was what he recalled as the "the raised pistol position". Didn't Oswald receive Marine training?

5. The same parking lot where Oswald was seen entering, was later found to have a discarded jacket that Marina testified belonged to Oswald.
6. Oswald's jacket that Marina later proved was Oswald's was not long after filmed in the Parking lot.

7. Some members theorize that the Dallas Police without knowing that multiple Eyewitnesses saw Oswald wearing a jacket and/or that he was arrested without a jacket, took the jacket from Irving and placed it in the Parking lot? Talk about desperation based on stupidity.
8. The same shells that were discarded by Oswald at the crime scene Exclusively matched Oswald's revolver.

9. Out of the hundreds of square miles of Dallas, the only Police Officer shot in years, was a stone's throw from both Oswald's rooming house and the the Theater where Oswald was arrested.

10. Why would anybody else have any motive to kill Tippit who was the first Police Officer gunned down in Dallas for many years, but perhaps an escaping assassin would have reason to commit another murder.

11. After Oswald left the Rooming House and before Oswald was arrested, Tippit was killed.
12. Oswald's reason for being on the side streets, was obviously because after killing Kennedy, he was avoiding the main roads. Duh!
13. Oswald while being arrested tried to use the same revolver to kill more cops.
14. Oswald admitted to Fritz that he was carrying his revolver, ""Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it."


JohnM

Well, isn't it just too bad that Frazier saw Oswald wear a grey jacket to Irving on Thursday evening and that Marina confirmed it.
Unless you can find some magical way in which a jacket that was in Irving on Thursday evening could have ended up at the roominghouse on Friday afternoon and subsequently at the parking lot where it was found and described as being white, you've got a problem.

Btw, I can give you a possible and plausible explanation on how the white jacket found at the parking lot suddenly turned out to be a gray jacket when it got to the DPD HQ, but I'm sure you won't like it.

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2024, 10:05:04 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2024, 12:20:22 AM »
"Eyewitness testimony is the weakest and most unreliable evidence there is." -- Martin Weidmann

"Well, isn't it just too bad that Frazier saw Oswald wear a grey jacket to Irving on Thursday evening..." -- also Martin Weidmann

Offline John Mytton

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2024, 12:58:19 AM »
If you want a serious discussion about this case, then stop being evasive. Eyewitness testimony is the weakest and most unreliable evidence there is. Even more so given the pathetic nature of the line ups. If you want to discuss the eyewitnesses, we can do that in another thread. I'll gladly destroy your fairytale.


The subject of my post has nothing to do with eyewitness testimony. Deal with the subject of my post or stay out of the discussion.


Huh?? Firstly, You do realize that the majority of times that you rely on mostly comes from eyewitness testimony? DOH! And your star eyewitness was Markham, who you Martin in the past, have not been exactly too kind to her state of mental health!

....who was an even bigger screwball than Markham, and whose "identification" of Oswald was completely pathetic.

Secondly, Oswald wasn't in some dark alley identified by a single eyewitness, but was out in the middle of the day, identified by not only one or two or three or even four eyewitnesses but there was a plethora of almost a DOZEN eyewitnesses.

Thirdly, the Police time on the radio was based on constant time checks and was actually the only officially calibrated time! And Tippit's doctor's report was clearly stated as Tippit arriving as DOA(Dead on Arrival) meaning the actual time of death, you do realize, happened some time before he arrived.

Fourthly, Let's as you suggest throw out all the eyewitness testimony and instead rely on the physical evidence.

A. we are left with the shells at the crime scene that was seen discarded by Tippit's murderer and were exclusively matched to Oswald's revolver.



B. Nicol a ballistics expert exclusively matched one of the bullets in Tippit's body to Oswald's revolver and the following proof that Nicol forensically photographed, I believe still to this day hasn't been debunked.



Mr. NICOL. Due to mutilation, I was not able to determine whether 605, 604, and 602 were fired in the same weapon. There were similarity of class characteristics-that is to say, there is nothing evident that would exclude the weapon. However, due to mutilation and apparent variance between the size of the barrel and the size of the projectile, the reproduction of individual characteristics was not good, and therefore I was unable to arrive at a conclusion beyond that of saying that the few lines that were found would indicate a modest possibility. But I would not by any means say that I could be positive. However, on specimen 602--I'm sorry--603, which I have designated as Q-502, I found sufficient individual characteristics to lead me to the conclusion that that projectile was fired in the same weapon that fired the projectiles in 606.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the exclusion of all other weapons?
Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir.


C. Oswald's zippered jacket was discovered close to the crime scene in a car park which the gunman was seen entering, and this jacket was actually filmed at the time and considering the entirety of the evidence, leaves any possibility of the Jacket being planted, being not only comical but completely impossible!. Earlene Roberts confirmed that Oswald was seen zipping up his jacket when he left the Rooming House and Oswald was arrested without the zippered jacket and Marina confirmed that the jacket that was discovered in the parking lot was owned by Lee Harvey Oswald!







D. When arrested Oswald pulled the exact same weapon that Oswald was sent and the same weapon which killed Tippit and the same weapon that Oswald attempted to kill more Police Officers and this is the man who you want to believe is innocent by fabricating some outlandish fantasy scenario? Really?



Martin BTW, next time don't bring a knife to a gunfight! LOL!

JohnM
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 01:03:23 AM by John Mytton »

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2024, 12:58:19 AM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2024, 12:59:18 AM »
"Eyewitness testimony is the weakest and most unreliable evidence there is." -- Martin Weidmann

"Well, isn't it just too bad that Frazier saw Oswald wear a grey jacket to Irving on Thursday evening..." -- also Martin Weidmann

Ouch, that's gotta hurt! LMFAO!

JohnM

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2024, 12:03:31 PM »
"Eyewitness testimony is the weakest and most unreliable evidence there is." -- Martin Weidmann

"Well, isn't it just too bad that Frazier saw Oswald wear a grey jacket to Irving on Thursday evening..." -- also Martin Weidmann

Yes, it's also too bad that a half blind Earlene Roberts saw Oswald zipping up a jacket, while paying more attention to the television.

Btw, Frazier's sighting was corroborated by Marina who also said the gray jacket was in Irving on Thursday evening.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 12:19:09 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2024, 12:03:31 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2024, 12:17:25 PM »

Huh?? Firstly, You do realize that the majority of times that you rely on mostly comes from eyewitness testimony? DOH! And your star eyewitness was Markham, who you Martin in the past, have not been exactly too kind to her state of mental health!

Secondly, Oswald wasn't in some dark alley identified by a single eyewitness, but was out in the middle of the day, identified by not only one or two or three or even four eyewitnesses but there was a plethora of almost a DOZEN eyewitnesses.

Thirdly, the Police time on the radio was based on constant time checks and was actually the only officially calibrated time! And Tippit's doctor's report was clearly stated as Tippit arriving as DOA(Dead on Arrival) meaning the actual time of death, you do realize, happened some time before he arrived.

Fourthly, Let's as you suggest throw out all the eyewitness testimony and instead rely on the physical evidence.

A. we are left with the shells at the crime scene that was seen discarded by Tippit's murderer and were exclusively matched to Oswald's revolver.



B. Nicol a ballistics expert exclusively matched one of the bullets in Tippit's body to Oswald's revolver and the following proof that Nicol forensically photographed, I believe still to this day hasn't been debunked.



Mr. NICOL. Due to mutilation, I was not able to determine whether 605, 604, and 602 were fired in the same weapon. There were similarity of class characteristics-that is to say, there is nothing evident that would exclude the weapon. However, due to mutilation and apparent variance between the size of the barrel and the size of the projectile, the reproduction of individual characteristics was not good, and therefore I was unable to arrive at a conclusion beyond that of saying that the few lines that were found would indicate a modest possibility. But I would not by any means say that I could be positive. However, on specimen 602--I'm sorry--603, which I have designated as Q-502, I found sufficient individual characteristics to lead me to the conclusion that that projectile was fired in the same weapon that fired the projectiles in 606.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the exclusion of all other weapons?
Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir.


C. Oswald's zippered jacket was discovered close to the crime scene in a car park which the gunman was seen entering, and this jacket was actually filmed at the time and considering the entirety of the evidence, leaves any possibility of the Jacket being planted, being not only comical but completely impossible!. Earlene Roberts confirmed that Oswald was seen zipping up his jacket when he left the Rooming House and Oswald was arrested without the zippered jacket and Marina confirmed that the jacket that was discovered in the parking lot was owned by Lee Harvey Oswald!







D. When arrested Oswald pulled the exact same weapon that Oswald was sent and the same weapon which killed Tippit and the same weapon that Oswald attempted to kill more Police Officers and this is the man who you want to believe is innocent by fabricating some outlandish fantasy scenario? Really?



Martin BTW, next time don't bring a knife to a gunfight! LOL!

JohnM

I'm going to ignore your usual nonsense and will only reply to two of your comments;

the Police time on the radio was based on constant time checks and was actually the only officially calibrated time!

Utter BS. The clocks used by the dispatchers were not calibrated at all and the time calls were in no way accurate. All you have to do is use a stopwatch and time the times between two calls. Some calls only had 45 seconds between them.


And Tippit's doctor's report was clearly stated as Tippit arriving as DOA(Dead on Arrival) meaning the actual time of death, you do realize, happened some time before he arrived.

More BS.... Davenport confirmed that when Tippit was brought into the hospital the doctors checked for sign of life and when they found none they declared him D.O.A. at 1:15.
But if you want to argue that Tippit was already dead before he arrived at the hospital at 1:15, that's fine by me.

Btw, interesting photo.



Can you explain how there are initials on the jacket from police officers that were never part of the chain of custody and why the initials of the police officers that actually were in the chain of custody are not there?

A uniformed policeman saw a jacket (described as white in DPD radio communications) and showed it to Captain Westbrook. The Captain had just come from 10th street and wanted to move on to the Texas Theater.
So, he gave the jacket to another uniformed policeman and left. He could not identify either police officer. Nobody knows what happened to the jacket after Westbrook left, until it somehow showed up at the DPD HQ where it magically had turned gray.
Go figure.....



« Last Edit: June 11, 2024, 12:42:08 PM by Martin Weidmann »