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Author Topic: A Closer Look…  (Read 11541 times)

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2024, 03:31:02 PM »
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The three shot, three hit “nonsense” follows from the abundant evidence that someone was hit on each shot.  So if you think it is nonsense, you need to deal with the evidence.

Hickey did not testify so we can’t be sure.  He did use the word “practically” which suggests almost but not quite no time element between them.  He may have been describing what Mary Woodward described in her 1980s interview, which was that third shot sounded before the reverberations from the second had died out.
”observed hair flying from the right side of his head” seems like a strange way to describe a head explosion spewing brain and blood (but not hair) in all directions. In that first statement (22Nov63) Kinney said he heard three shots but he was not sure which shots struck JFK. If the second shot that he described as causing JFK’s hair to fly up left him unsure if it struck JFK, that tends to support what Hickey said he observed. If he actually saw the third shot as well, how could he not conclude that JFK was hit by it?

It may be that Kinney was watching JFK at the time of the second shot but was watching Clint Hill at the time of the third shot.  He was driving the car, after all. With Clint Hill running between cars he may have been distracted.  He did make it clear that Hill jumped off after the first shot and before the second (he placed an asterisk after mentioning the first shot and before mentioning the second to denote the time Hill jumped off).

The three shot, three hit “nonsense” follows from the abundant evidence that someone was hit on each shot.  So if you think it is nonsense, you need to deal with the evidence.

Evidence, what evidence? That is the point, you have zero evidence of anything. This made-up tripe you keep presenting does not pass as evidence. You cannot even prove there was three shots.

A shot at Z195:

Andrew Mason: “Witness Evidence in the JFK Assassination”

“At least 16 witnesses recalled that the President reacted to the first shot by leaning left and bringing his hands to his neck 91. From frame 167 to frame 195 of the Zapruder film the President and First Lady turned to their right to smile and wave at the crowd. No one said that smiling and waving occurred after the first shot. On the contrary, some witnesses recalled that this occurred just before the first shot”

JFK only stops waving and looking forward at Z207. He shows no reaction until he emerges from behind the sign.  According to the latest version of this goofy theory, he was wounded for a full second before showing a real reaction. JFK, what a trooper, shot through the neck but kept smiling and waving.

A shot at Z270: 

Andrew Mason: “Witness Evidence in the JFK Assassination”
 
2. The relative timing of the shots. The 1……….2….3 pattern 
 
There is a significant body of evidence regarding the relative spacing of the shots. The Warren Commission, in stating its conclusion that there were three shots, observed that most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were closer together than the first and second.26 The Commission appears to have made little use of this evidence in reaching its conclusions, however. There were at least 47 witnesses who gave evidence of a later second shot fitting this pattern.
 
As seen from the above review of the evidence, there are at least 47 witnesses who provided clear evidence of a shorter separation between the last two shots. Only 6 thought the pattern was the reverse. Another 9 (not counting Emmett Hudson) thought the shots were about equally spaced. The distribution of witnesses shows the high significance of the witness recollection that the last two shots were closer together. If the shot pattern was really the opposite, one would have to explain why only 6 out of 62 witnesses perceived the pattern correctly and how 47 of them randomly made the same mistake.
 
You do not support your own ridiculous analysis? Actually, I do not blame you. 47 witnesses out of the all the earwitnesses in Dealey Plaza. Not very many at all. Even the 47 is wrong and an inflated number. It is definitely 25% or less of the total. There are more two shot witnesses.

A suspect tally of witnesses you have chosen. 47 in total. A number of them do not support this theory. There are more two shot witnesses than that. You would think that would be a clue.

Hickey did not testify so we can’t be sure.  He did use the word “practically” which suggests almost but not quite no time element between them.  He may have been describing what Mary Woodward described in her 1980s interview, which was that third shot sounded before the reverberations from the second had died out.
”observed hair flying from the right side of his head” seems like a strange way to describe a head explosion spewing brain and blood (but not hair) in all directions. In that first statement (22Nov63) Kinney said he heard three shots but he was not sure which shots struck JFK. If the second shot that he described as causing JFK’s hair to fly up left him unsure if it struck JFK, that tends to support what Hickey said he observed. If he actually saw the third shot as well, how could he not conclude that JFK was hit by it?

It may be that Kinney was watching JFK at the time of the second shot but was watching Clint Hill at the time of the third shot.  He was driving the car, after all. With Clint Hill running between cars he may have been distracted.  He did make it clear that Hill jumped off after the first shot and before the second (he placed an asterisk after mentioning the first shot and before mentioning the second to denote the time Hill jumped off).


Why do you think Hickey’s and Kinney’s statements need your clarification? How about stop misquoting them in an attempt to bolster this strange theory. They are a straightforward depiction of what they saw and heard. What they saw and heard in no way represents what you have been proposing.

Kinney and Hickey roomed with each other in Dallas. Do you think they might have talked to each other. Guess what they both give the same description of the hair flying forward. Go figure.

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2024, 03:31:02 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2024, 12:37:28 AM »

 
You do not support your own ridiculous analysis? Actually, I do not blame you. 47 witnesses out of the all the earwitnesses in Dealey Plaza. Not very many at all. Even the 47 is wrong and an inflated number. It is definitely 25% or less of the total.
47 out of 62 who reported a timing pattern to the shots. So 47 is 75% of those who reported a pattern to the shots.

Quote
There are more two shot witnesses.

A suspect tally of witnesses you have chosen. 47 in total. A number of them do not support this theory. There are more two shot witnesses than that. You would think that would be a clue.
I have asked you to provide the list of who they are.  Still waiting.  The HSCA study found 17 who recalled only 2 shots and 7 others who recalled 2 or 3 shots.


Quote
Why do you think Hickey’s and Kinney’s statements need your clarification? How about stop misquoting them in an attempt to bolster this strange theory. They are a straightforward depiction of what they saw and heard. What they saw and heard in no way represents what you have been proposing.

Kinney and Hickey roomed with each other in Dallas. Do you think they might have talked to each other. Guess what they both give the same description of the hair flying forward. Go figure.
You seem to agree they both described the second shot as JFK's hair flying forward but did not describe seeing blood or head explosion on the second shot.  I am just saying they saw what they said they saw.  No clarification needed.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2024, 02:35:58 PM »
47 out of 62 who reported a timing pattern to the shots. So 47 is 75% of those who reported a pattern to the shots.
I have asked you to provide the list of who they are.  Still waiting.  The HSCA study found 17 who recalled only 2 shots and 7 others who recalled 2 or 3 shots.

You seem to agree they both described the second shot as JFK's hair flying forward but did not describe seeing blood or head explosion on the second shot.  I am just saying they saw what they said they saw.  No clarification needed.

Great math. So now, it is not the HSCA’s 178 total witnesses or the 132 three shot witnesses. It is 62 Andrew Mason predetermined witnesses, and these witness statements have somehow led you to this conclusion there was a shot at Z270. What a mess of logic.

So, by your standards 47 out of 132 and/or 178 witnesses is evidence?  The other 85 and/or 129 witnesses recalling a different three shot pattern were wrong. Only the ones you like are right, and a number of them do not state what you say they do. Just when this whole theory could not be a bigger mess you prove it most definitely can. Where in this mess does it mention 62 Andrew predetermined witnesses.

Andrew Mason: “Witness Evidence in the JFK Assassination”

"Of 178 witnesses whose evidence relating to the number of shots was compiled by the HSCA: 17 recalled hearing two; 7 said they heard two or three shots;132 reported hearing exactly three shots; 6 people said they heard four shots; and 9 said they were not sure how many shots they heard. A further 7 bystanders reported hearing 1, 5, 6, or 8 shots.1"
 

Added to the mess is the shot at Z195 which still leaves JFK smiling and waving for at least another second. Something you claim in your paper did not happen. Is the claim made that he reacted immediately, just nonsense? There is no way you could believe both.

Andrew Mason: “Witness Evidence in the JFK Assassination”

“At least 16 witnesses recalled that the President reacted to the first shot by leaning left and bringing his hands to his neck 91. From frame 167 to frame 195 of the Zapruder film the President and First Lady turned to their right to smile and wave at the crowd. No one said that smiling and waving occurred after the first shot. On the contrary, some witnesses recalled that this occurred just before the first shot”


You can look the two shot witnesses for yourself. I won’t waste the time. You can’t understand the simple statements of SA Hickey and SA Kinney. This cartoon understanding of a bullet passing by and making JFK’s hair flutter staggers the imagination. Reading witness accounts stating there were two shots would only confuse your already tortured understanding of a simple event. Having the HSCA do your thinking for you is best. You cannot harm anything if you just stay with their analysis. You already know the statements of the two shot witnesses. Repeating them would be useless given you already only can grasp what the HSCA compiled. 

Do you really not understand these simple statements? Probably cannot and continue to promote the three hit mess posted here.

SA Hickey:

SA Hickey: 11/22 
 
“The president was slumped to the left in the car and I saw him come up. I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed as if the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward.”

 
SA Hickey11/30 

“At the moment he was almost sitting erect, I heard two reports that I thought were shots and that a peared to me completely different in sound than the first report and which were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.”

Key SA Kinney phrase is “flying from the right side of his head.”

SA Kinney: 

“At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head”

 

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2024, 02:35:58 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2024, 05:01:12 PM »
Great math. So now, it is not the HSCA’s 178 total witnesses or the 132 three shot witnesses. It is 62 Andrew Mason predetermined witnesses, and these witness statements have somehow led you to this conclusion there was a shot at Z270. What a mess of logic.

So, by your standards 47 out of 132 and/or 178 witnesses is evidence?  The other 85 and/or 129 witnesses recalling a different three shot pattern were wrong. Only the ones you like are right, and a number of them do not state what you say they do. Just when this whole theory could not be a bigger mess you prove it most definitely can. Where in this mess does it mention 62 Andrew predetermined witnesses.

Jack, if you are going to respond to posts you should read them first. There were only 62 witnesses, by my count who recalled ANY shot pattern. Not everyone who recalled three shots recalled a pattern to those shots..

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2024, 01:26:25 AM »
That 2003 Beyond Conspiracy documentary experiment shooting thru 2 replica body’s although not exactly proving the throat exit trajectory path,  none the less did seem to have proved the bullet hitting JFK would likely have continued on thru his body and hit JC in the back.

Can Andrew prove that a hit on just JFK at Z224 would NOT have continued thru JFKs body to hit JC?

As I understood it, the doctors who probed for the bullet that struck JFK at approx Z224 did NOT find a path thru JFKs body that definitively links the back wound with the throat exit wound.

But if that Z224 bullet did not exit from JFKs body then surely they would have found it lodged in his body somewhere?

An alternative  possibility (besides the WC SBT)  for not finding that bullet (CE399)in JFK is if that bullet fell out of JFKs body ( as opposed to allegedly having fallen out of JCs thigh) when JFK was placed on the stretcher.

So in Andrews 3 shot theory , the  1st Z190 ish shot that bypassed JFK and hits directly into JCs left thigh , would  theoretically have either buried DEEP in his thigh or more probably gone completely thru  JC’s leg and hence probably into the back side of the front seat ( or lower part of the cushion).

If however the speculative Z190 bullet got lodged in the seat but then fell out later, that might explain the late revelation of (SS agent Kinnley?) finding a bullet in the limo while the other  that other bullet that hit only JFK at Z224 was found on JFKs stretcher and the guy finding it describing it as more pointed bullet than CE 399.

But all this would be contingent on Andrew proving that either the Z190 ish bullet went completely thru JCs leg ( good luck 😳) or that the bullet somehow bounced  out of his leg or struck part of his leg bone causing the bullet to ricochet at an angle into the back seat ( good luck with that also 🙂

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2024, 01:26:25 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2024, 02:45:38 PM »
Jack, if you are going to respond to posts you should read them first. There were only 62 witnesses, by my count who recalled ANY shot pattern. Not everyone who recalled three shots recalled a pattern to those shots..

Oh but I did read it. Same made up unsupported nonsense. What you seem unable to understand, is that no discernable shot pattern is a pattern or could be interpreted to be evenly spaced. 85 non-descript shot pattern statements, all evenly spaced. The witnesses did not place any importance on it or the person taking the statement did not care about your half-baked theory. Especially one lacking support by your own opinion and witness analysis paper. A shot at Z195 even you do not believe it.

But what does it matter, the HSCA completely dismissed their whole witness analysis as to the number of shots as having been inflated due to medias influence, as did the WC. In the HSCA’s estimation there should have been 178 two shot witnesses.

WC Conclusion: "The eyewitness testimony may be subconsciously colored by the extensive publicity given the conclusion that three shots were fired"
 
HSCA Conclusion:  The buildings around the Plaza caused strong reverberations, or echoes, that followed the initial sound by from 0 .5 to 1 .5 sec . While these reflections caused no confusion to our listeners, who were prepared and expected to hear them, they may well have inflated the number of shots reported by the suprised witnesses during the assassination .  HSCA Earwitness Analysis Report, pgs 135-137
 
HSCA Conclusion: "The committee believed that the witnesses memories and testimony on the number, direction, and timing of the shots may have
been substantially influenced by the intervening publicity concerning the events of November 22 1963"
   HSCA Final Report- pg 87

A theory based on a report that the people who wrote the report do not believe in its analysis or conclusion. That is probably why you have shots comprising your theory that in reality did not happen.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2024, 07:10:47 PM »
Oh but I did read it. Same made up unsupported nonsense. What you seem unable to understand, is that no discernable shot pattern is a pattern or could be interpreted to be evenly spaced. 85 non-descript shot pattern statements, all evenly spaced.
But the witnesses did not say that there was no discernible shot pattern.  They just didn't mention it.  And three evenly spaced shots is a discernible pattern.

Quote
WC Conclusion: "The eyewitness testimony may be subconsciously colored by the extensive publicity given the conclusion that three shots were fired"
 
HSCA Conclusion:  The buildings around the Plaza caused strong reverberations, or echoes, that followed the initial sound by from 0 .5 to 1 .5 sec . While these reflections caused no confusion to our listeners, who were prepared and expected to hear them, they may well have inflated the number of shots reported by the suprised witnesses during the assassination .  HSCA Earwitness Analysis Report, pgs 135-137
That might explain why some reported 4 or more shots.  It does not explain why witnesses heard three loud shots distinctly spaced shots, which is what the vast majority reported.  An echo that would have occurred 1.5 seconds after the shot would be from a surface 560 feet away from the observer.  Such an echo would be much less loud and easily distinguished from the muzzle blast
 
Quote
HSCA Conclusion: "The committee believed that the witnesses memories and testimony on the number, direction, and timing of the shots may have
been substantially influenced by the intervening publicity concerning the events of November 22 1963"
   HSCA Final Report- pg 87
They appear not to have been familiar with the studies that had been done on the effect of publicity on witness accounts. These are all referred to in Loftus, Eyewitness Testimony, 1979 Chapter 4.  Receiving information within a day of the event that is consistent with what occurred, does not affect the accuracy of the witnesses in recalling details. In other words, the accuracy rate of witnesses is the same as those who received no information - about 80%.  However, those who received false information about the events within a day of the event were noticeably affected: 


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2024, 02:13:31 PM »
But the witnesses did not say that there was no discernible shot pattern.  They just didn't mention it.  And three evenly spaced shots is a discernible pattern.
That might explain why some reported 4 or more shots.  It does not explain why witnesses heard three loud shots distinctly spaced shots, which is what the vast majority reported.  An echo that would have occurred 1.5 seconds after the shot would be from a surface 560 feet away from the observer.  Such an echo would be much less loud and easily distinguished from the muzzle blast
  They appear not to have been familiar with the studies that had been done on the effect of publicity on witness accounts. These are all referred to in Loftus, Eyewitness Testimony, 1979 Chapter 4.  Receiving information within a day of the event that is consistent with what occurred, does not affect the accuracy of the witnesses in recalling details. In other words, the accuracy rate of witnesses is the same as those who received no information - about 80%.  However, those who received false information about the events within a day of the event were noticeably affected: 

 

Here it is again, the usual cute and clever third grade attempts at logic. This must be the same clever logic you used when Thomas Canning decided the only way he was going to get rid of you was to fake the early stages of Alzheimer or dementia.

A lot is missing from your post. 

No answer to the fact that after your Z195 shot JFK continues to wave and smile at the spectators, even though according to your claim the bullet struck him at this time, and your paper stating JFK quits interacting with the crowd once he is shot. JFK was a real trooper to continue smiling and waving even though he was shot in the throat.

Proof of a shot at Z270. Proof there even was three shots. Nothing at all, just a lot of tripe about your strange witness claims and apparently oblivious to the fact that the HSCA, who produced the report, dismissed it and stated it was wrong. I guess you have to keep using it, if not what else is there.

A shot Clint Hill did not hear while Clint Hill was running. No answer at all. This was presented supposedly as proof of a shot at Z270. Clint Hill did not start running until Z310. He not only did not hear the shot, there never was one.

Continuing reliance of witness statements drawn from the HSCA report. Unfortunately, the HSCA ultimately declared the report was wrong, but don’t let that deter you from continuing to make erroneous assumptions in support of a completely failed theory. Ignored the WC making the same statement, but you know better because you are back to pretending you are a math major. 

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Re: A Closer Look…
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2024, 02:13:31 PM »