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Author Topic: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet  (Read 5930 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2024, 12:08:09 AM »
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Good enough.

However, I should point out that the head of the shooter looks like a totally sharp image. His head is not blurred at all. This, in addition to the bullet appearing, indicates a very high shutter speed.

In contrast, Trump's head is blurred, while the sign on the podium is sharp and clear. which implies a slower shutter speed. It doesn't matter if some cameras, or even his camera, was capable of a very high shutter speed. All that matters is what was the shutter speed setting when the picture was taken. And, with Trump's slightly blurred head, it appears it was not set at a high speed.


Calculate the estimated speed of the bullet at the distance from the muzzle (it loses speed as it travels through the air). Measure the estimated length of the streak in the photograph. From those two resulting numbers, calculate the shutter speed. The link to the web page gives you the settings that Peter Russell used. You can see that the streak of Rullell’s bullet is much shorter than the streak in the Trump image. Therefore we would expect that the much longer streak in the Trump image indicates a much slower shutter speed. If you are interested enough you can do the calculations and come up with a ballpark estimate. My guess is around 1/1000 of a second.

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2024, 12:08:09 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2024, 01:09:10 AM »

A composite image showing what appears to be a bullet passing by Donald J. Trump during a rally in Butler, Pa., on Saturday. Credit...Doug Mills/The New York Times

Mr. Mills was using a Sony digital camera capable of capturing images at up to 30 frames per second. He took these photos with a shutter speed of 1/8,000th of a second — extremely fast by industry standards.

The other factor is the speed of the bullet from the firearm. On Saturday law enforcement authorities recovered an AR-15-type semiautomatic rifle at the scene from a deceased white man they believe was the gunman.

“If the gunman was firing an AR-15-style rifle, the .223-caliber or 5.56-millimeter bullets they use travel at roughly 3,200 feet per second when they leave the weapon’s muzzle,’’ Mr. Harrigan said. “And with a 1/8,000th of a second shutter speed, this would allow the bullet to travel approximately four-tenths of a foot while the shutter is open.”

“Most cameras used to capture images of bullets in flight are using extremely high speed specialty cameras not normally utilized for regular photography, so catching a bullet on a side trajectory as seen in that photo would be a one in a million shot and nearly impossible to catch even if one knew the bullet was coming,” he said.

(from NYT article: Photo Appears to Capture Path of Bullet Used in Assassination Attempt, July 14, 2024)


Thanks, that should answer some of the questions.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2024, 02:04:50 AM »
The Mills Streak photo shows a brief moment after the second shot. Going by my memory of the NYT audio/video analysis, Trump's right hand flinches up about 1/5 sec after the first shot and is almost to chest level by the second shot. There's about one sec between the shots. So the photo is consistent with the second bullet (the streak) missing the head.

I assume the photographer would just hold the shutter button down and get a sequence of images until he released the shutter. I don't think Mills could have been motivated by hearing the shots to make his automatic sequence. It was coincidental. The first pop sound is not that loud; few react in the crowd.

Maybe Mills was trying to get a shot with the flag behind Trump. I wonder if the Streak photo was the first in the sequence.


Interesting, however the animation with the overhead view doesn’t quite synchronize with that analysis. It appears to me that it shows Trump’s right hand all the way up near his ear at the time of the second bullet.

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2024, 02:04:50 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2024, 12:03:30 PM »


I now have the animation. The right hand flinches just before the second shot; not just after the first shot as I tried to recall earlier. A few in the crowd begin to duck shortly after the second shot.


First Bullet
 

Right Hand Begins to Rise
 

Second Bullet
 

Third Bullet

I would say the bullet reports arrived at the camera's location about the same time Trump would have heard it; the camera and Trump are roughly a similar distance from the muzzle. The span between each shot differs; since the shooter was using a semi-automatic, he had to manually fire each shot. So between each shot, he was experiencing recoil, meaning his trajectory roamed a bit. I don't think he had a gun rest.

The gunman fired off another five rounds after the initial three-shot sequence. Going by the Times' gunman view, Corey Comperatore seems a bit away from the Trump line-of-attack.


_____



The overhead animation was made just a few days after the shooting. I suspect they didn't have a model of the overall area, didn't know exactly where the shooter was, didn't see where the first three bullets struck. Maybe they synced it to an audio; maybe they didn't.

For an animation done fast (maybe with AI), it was pretty good. The bullet would have struck Trump's skull if he hadn't moved. That's the point they were trying to make. To do all eight trajectories right and with precision, it will take the FBI months. There's the metal fragments to account for; maybe some bullets disintegrated. They might have to do ballistics tests. In a lessor case, they would just account for the Comperatore and wounding shots and leave it at that.


Wow, great post! Thanks Jerry. I cannot help but compare the reactions of some of the spectators to the reactions we have seen and discussed in the Zapruder film. Some react very quickly and some just don’t seem to react much at all.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2024, 12:15:23 AM »

    "I was taking pictures and that's when the pops started happening.
     And I just happened to have my finger on the shutter. And I heard
     the pops and just kept shooting."
          -- Doug Mills, captured bullet streak


A small crane held up speakers for the event. Its hydraulic line was severed.


Start of Animation
 


I had previously thought to myself that both of the cranes appeared to be close to the line of fire. The one that had its hydraulic line severed was on the opposite side of the stage from the shooter (if I am looking at things correctly). Therefore, it appears to me that one of the bullets hit the hydraulic line after it passed by Trump and the stage area. I wasn’t aware that one of the cranes appeared to be hit until I saw this post. Thanks.

P.S. A crazy thought came to my mind while watching the interview of Doug Mills. When they showed Trump with his defiant fist in the air, I was reminded of the photo of LHO when he displayed his fist to the cameras while in DPD custody. The comparison is of some very different circumstances, but perhaps similar in their symbolism of defiance.

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2024, 12:15:23 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2024, 01:48:21 AM »


    "The top arrow points to his body. Just below it is his rifle lying a few feet
     from him. The arrow to the right points to his backpack. The far right
     arrow points to a ladder. Note the large flow of blood downslope of his
     body in the following closeup."

Link to picture: May not be suitable for some


Just guessing, but there is some considerable distance from the body to the rifle. And sitting on the ridge vent just above the rifle there appears to be a dark object. I think that that object could be a sandbag or similar object used as a rest for the rifle while shooting it. I don’t know much about the shooter but have read some outrageous things that probably are not true. I did read that Trump said they got him with one shot between the eyes.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2024, 03:24:55 AM »

A composite image showing what appears to be a bullet passing by Donald J. Trump during a rally in Butler, Pa., on Saturday. Credit...Doug Mills/The New York Times

Mr. Mills was using a Sony digital camera capable of capturing images at up to 30 frames per second. He took these photos with a shutter speed of 1/8,000th of a second — extremely fast by industry standards.

The other factor is the speed of the bullet from the firearm. On Saturday law enforcement authorities recovered an AR-15-type semiautomatic rifle at the scene from a deceased white man they believe was the gunman.

“If the gunman was firing an AR-15-style rifle, the .223-caliber or 5.56-millimeter bullets they use travel at roughly 3,200 feet per second when they leave the weapon’s muzzle,’’ Mr. Harrigan said. “And with a 1/8,000th of a second shutter speed, this would allow the bullet to travel approximately four-tenths of a foot while the shutter is open.”

“Most cameras used to capture images of bullets in flight are using extremely high speed specialty cameras not normally utilized for regular photography, so catching a bullet on a side trajectory as seen in that photo would be a one in a million shot and nearly impossible to catch even if one knew the bullet was coming,” he said.l
(from NYT article: Photo Appears to Capture Path of Bullet Used in Assassination Attempt, July 14, 2024)

Yes. The photographer indicated that the shutter speed was 1/8,000 of a second. That should be considered definitive. Except for one thing. The length of the bullet path is about one foot. This would indicate a bullet speed of, distance / time.

1 foot / (1/8,000) of a second = 8,000 feet per second.

That is a problem. The muzzle velocity of the AR-15 is 3,300 feet per second. There is no way the shutter speed could be 1/8,000 of a second.

By the way, this photographs is cropped, making it possible the streak was longer than one foot, extending beyond the right edge. But non cropped photographs show the streak is only about one foot long, not much longer.

Correction: In my earlier posts I spoke of a three foot long streak. I was looking at youtube video where I only got a short view. It is really more like a one foot long streak.

If there is a conflict between what the photographer says and what the photograph says, I am going to believe the photograph. There is no way the shutter speed was 1/8,000 of a second. Unless the object was not a bullet fragment nor a bullet but an alien drone moving at 8,000 feet per second.


Perhaps the photographer was mistaken. Maybe the shutter speed was more like 1/4000 of a second. That just might work. But there is another problem.

The image of the sign on the podium of crystal sharpe. But of Trump's hat, the lettering looks a little blurry, obviously caused by Trump moving his head a little, while the podium was still. With the letter "A" on the hat, I cannot clearly see a red triangle inside the white "A". In contrast, I can easily see a blue triangle inside the white "A" on the podium sign, even though the letters are similar size. That hat appears a little blurry.

I would think that at 1/4,000 of a second, the letters on Trump's hat would be quite sharp, not blurry, even if Trump was moving his head slightly.

I think the photograph shows the shutter speed setting was set a good deal slower than 1/4,000 of a second, indicated by the blurring of Trump's hat. If that is true, the object could not be a bullet moving at 3,300 feet per second, and not a pristine bullet.

Question:

Does anyone have an example of a picture, taken with a shutter speed of 1/4,000 of a second, which still shows some blurring of the person, because they were moving a little. That even 1/4,000 of a second is not fast enough to prevent some blurring even of a person who is standing pretty still.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 03:35:09 AM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2024, 03:50:23 AM »
Here is a link that shows, if you scroll down a bit, the streak was about the length of his hat, about one foot. Object traveling at 8,000  feet per second if the shutter speed was 1/8,000 of a second. Impossible.

https://haje.medium.com/theres-a-problem-with-that-bullet-in-flight-photo-of-trump-333dc1eeda1a
« Last Edit: July 29, 2024, 03:53:28 AM by Joe Elliott »

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Re: Emergency Doctors Determine that Trump was Struck by a Rifle Bullet
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2024, 03:50:23 AM »