Tippit Debate

[John Mytton]

No, my point stands.  Whether he had the tattered brown shirt on or not, he still was in a messed-up T-shirt and had a cut-up forehead and was screaming about how unfair the lineup is.

Whether he had the tattered brown shirt on or not

How is that a problem, you keep using circular logic and assuming eyewitnesses make decisions based on the Oswald we know, but from their POV the man who was wearing the brown shirt could have simply been a bum they grabbed to fill the line-up.

he still was in a messed-up T-shirt

In what way was his T-shirt messed up, the fact that in those line-ups Oswald wasn't wearing the jacket and brown shirt gave him a distinct advantage.

and had a cut-up forehead

What's that got to do with the price of fish, this assumption that Oswald having a scratch on his head made eyewitnesses pick him is simply absurd but having a different appearance from when they saw Oswald earlier, again gave Oswald an advantage.

and was screaming about how unfair the lineup is.

Because Oswald had eyes, he could see the other people in the line-up and knew that they were all about the same size and build and dressed different to each other, therefore everyone had an equal chance but Oswald knowing that he was seen by multiple people at the scene of the crime, simply used this as a tactic for the inevitable trial.
But let's get serious, if Oswald was truly innocent why would he even say anything?



JohnM

[Michael Capasse]

Oswald had NO advantage at all in the line ups.
 
They had fill-ins that looked nothing like him or the witness descriptions.
Police officers dressed in suit jackets - collared shirt and dress slacks - vests, or button down sweaters - blonde hair and some much heavier.
Oswald complained about the process loudly and incessantly -  Held for 44+ hours with no attorney.

Leavelle to the witnesses: "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer.
We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him."

https://jfk.boards.net/post/1268/thread

[Zeon Mason]

Oswald must be really stupid, crazy , or what?
1. He leaves behind rifle with serial no. that links rifle to his fake name ID and his own real name P.O. Box
2. He also ordered the revolver using the same fake ID.
3. Writes on the mail order form in his own handwriting style.
4. After shooting JFK , Oswald now supposedly in a hurry to get out of TSBD asap, takes off his brown shirt after being seen by Baker in the lunchroom, leaving it in the lunchroom.
5. Oswald then slowly walks from lunchroom into the 2nd floor office rear door at approx 2 minutes post shots wearing only his T-shirt and carrying a full bottle of coke. Mrs Reid sees no brown shirt wrapped around Oswald’s waist or stuffed in his pants as he slowly walks towards her.
6. Oswald then exited the front door of the office and had to travel another 100 ft back down the outer hallway , thru vestibule and then some distance into lunchroom to recover and put back on his brown shirt. Maybe he also retrieved his jacket there too and put it on ( but who knows?)
7. Then this Oswald in a hurry to get out of TSBD asap as the theory goes, lingers around on the 1st floor in the front lobby long enough to have met  2 reporters ( Allman and McNeil).
8. Oswald apparently then did NOT go out the front door of TSBD if Buell W. Frazier saw Oswald coming up Houston st from the back side of TSBD.(maybe BWF is just having a 50 year late memory fog?) IDK
9. Still presumably in a hurry, Oswald walks  7 blocks to get on a bus which is obviously oriented to go BACK to TSBD. ??
10. Maybe McWatters was confusing another man and Bledsoe is just a kook who could not possibly have seen a hole in Oswald’s brown shirt because he was NOT YET wearing it. So maybe this part of the trek can be tossed out as unsubstantiated.
12. So possibly Oswald just walked from TSBD directly to the Whaley Taxi and was able to board the taxi as early as 12:40? But he sits in the FRONT seat? Seems odd for an assassin who fears that surveillance FBI might be near the house (or following the cab) to more easily see Oswald in the front seat. And To let the cab driver have much closer view to Oswald’s face?
12. Okay, stopping the cab 5 blocks from the house is maybe not so stupid, but coming into the front door entrance of the house?
13. The next move though , is really stupid, crazy or what? If Oswalds intent was to get his revolver it’s incredibly stupid then to carry the fake ID in his wallet that links the revolver to that fake name ( as well as linking rifle serial no.)
14. The final and most stupid crazy (or what?) move is to pull out revolver and shoot Tippit in view of several witness, then linger at the scene throwing out shells one by one, and then dropping his wallet with fake ID there at the scene. ( Or, if the wallet was found on Oswald after being arrested? It’s even more stupid  crazy to carry both gun and ID after shooting Tippit.
If it’s a pre event conspiracy to frame Oswald , what is the minimum no. Of people needed?
If it’s a post event frame of Oswald for expediency so  LBJ can change  the JFK Vietnam foreign policy asap ( in 3 days) what’s the minimum no. of people required?

Is there some other CT theory like MK Ultra mind control that could make this a minimal conspiracy and would explain the stupid/crazy or what? actions of Oswald.

How plausible that Oswald planned this out this way because he thought he could implicate himself just enough to get arrested and then have a spectacular trial where his chosen prominent lawyer convinces the jury it was all a setup?

Answer: It’s possible but not really that plausible because Oswald shooting Tippet in public way is WAY too risky and really not necessary since he already left enough potential evidence at the TSBD if he is carrying his fake ID in his wallet. If Oswald’s motive was fame for being accused of assassination of JFK , and being exonerated via “I’m a Patsy” argument .,then shooting a cop is a stupid move because now a substantial no. The public might be less sympathetic to that argument.

So I’m leaning towards either MK ultra mind control as a simple CT option that causes Oswald to be stupid/crazy or what? or I can reconsider the WC theory that Oswald was just a natural Marxist left wing kook.

Problems that remain however, that upset either option, are Dorothy Garner on the 4th floor,  CE399, and only 4.8 secs to shoot 3 shots if Z224 is most likely the 1st shot fired. And the missing bullet.

[John Mytton]

Oswald must be really stupid, crazy , or what?
1. He leaves behind rifle with serial no. that links rifle to his fake name ID and his own real name P.O. Box
2. He also ordered the revolver using the same fake ID.
3. Writes on the mail order form in his own handwriting style.
4. After shooting JFK , Oswald now supposedly in a hurry to get out of TSBD asap, takes off his brown shirt after being seen by Baker in the lunchroom, leaving it in the lunchroom.
5. Oswald then slowly walks from lunchroom into the 2nd floor office rear door at approx 2 minutes post shots wearing only his T-shirt and carrying a full bottle of coke. Mrs Reid sees no brown shirt wrapped around Oswald’s waist or stuffed in his pants as he slowly walks towards her.
6. Oswald then exited the front door of the office and had to travel another 100 ft back down the outer hallway , thru vestibule and then some distance into lunchroom to recover and put back on his brown shirt. Maybe he also retrieved his jacket there too and put it on ( but who knows?)
7. Then this Oswald in a hurry to get out of TSBD asap as the theory goes, lingers around on the 1st floor in the front lobby long enough to have met  2 reporters ( Allman and McNeil).
8. Oswald apparently then did NOT go out the front door of TSBD if Buell W. Frazier saw Oswald coming up Houston st from the back side of TSBD.(maybe BWF is just having a 50 year late memory fog?) IDK
9. Still presumably in a hurry, Oswald walks  7 blocks to get on a bus which is obviously oriented to go BACK to TSBD. ??
10. Maybe McWatters was confusing another man and Bledsoe is just a kook who could not possibly have seen a hole in Oswald’s brown shirt because he was NOT YET wearing it. So maybe this part of the trek can be tossed out as unsubstantiated.
12. So possibly Oswald just walked from TSBD directly to the Whaley Taxi and was able to board the taxi as early as 12:40? But he sits in the FRONT seat? Seems odd for an assassin who fears that surveillance FBI might be near the house (or following the cab) to more easily see Oswald in the front seat. And To let the cab driver have much closer view to Oswald’s face?
12. Okay, stopping the cab 5 blocks from the house is maybe not so stupid, but coming into the front door entrance of the house?
13. The next move though , is really stupid, crazy or what? If Oswalds intent was to get his revolver it’s incredibly stupid then to carry the fake ID in his wallet that links the revolver to that fake name ( as well as linking rifle serial no.)
14. The final and most stupid crazy (or what?) move is to pull out revolver and shoot Tippit in view of several witness, then linger at the scene throwing out shells one by one, and then dropping his wallet with fake ID there at the scene. ( Or, if the wallet was found on Oswald after being arrested? It’s even more stupid  crazy to carry both gun and ID after shooting Tippit.
If it’s a pre event conspiracy to frame Oswald , what is the minimum no. Of people needed?
If it’s a post event frame of Oswald for expediency so  LBJ can change  the JFK Vietnam foreign policy asap ( in 3 days) what’s the minimum no. of people required?

Is there some other CT theory like MK Ultra mind control that could make this a minimal conspiracy and would explain the stupid/crazy or what? actions of Oswald.

How plausible that Oswald planned this out this way because he thought he could implicate himself just enough to get arrested and then have a spectacular trial where his chosen prominent lawyer convinces the jury it was all a setup?

Answer: It’s possible but not really that plausible because Oswald shooting Tippet in public way is WAY too risky and really not necessary since he already left enough potential evidence at the TSBD if he is carrying his fake ID in his wallet. If Oswald’s motive was fame for being accused of assassination of JFK , and being exonerated via “I’m a Patsy” argument .,then shooting a cop is a stupid move because now a substantial no. The public might be less sympathetic to that argument.

So I’m leaning towards either MK ultra mind control as a simple CT option that causes Oswald to be stupid/crazy or what? or I can reconsider the WC theory that Oswald was just a natural Marxist left wing kook.

Problems that remain however, that upset either option, are Dorothy Garner on the 4th floor,  CE399, and only 4.8 secs to shoot 3 shots if Z224 is most likely the 1st shot fired. And the missing bullet.

Oswald must be really stupid, crazy , or what?

Oswald was both stupid and crazy.

Who defects to the enemy at the height of the cold war?
Who after painfully discovering that his trip to Russia was a colossal failure because he envisioned himself as having a significant impact, comes crawling back to America?
Who after being denied entrance to Russia has a hissy fit and slashes his own wrists and then writes in his "Historic Diary" that he decided to "end it" and that Rimma will come to "find me dead" and to top it off, the Russians put Oswald in the "insanity ward"
Who beats his wife.
Who attempts to kill General Walker, does a sane man kill someone he doesn't even know for a cause?
Who uses an alias to buy murder weapons.
Who kills a President?, if that isn't absolutely bonkers crazy then I don't know what is.
Who kills a poor cop for simply stopping him.
Who tries to kill more cops when he's arrested.
Who tells the most absurd lies to his interrogators.

Oswald was a disturbed young man who through violence sought to change the World.

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Oswald was both stupid and crazy.

Who defects to the enemy at the height of the cold war?
Who after painfully discovering that his trip to Russia was a colossal failure because he envisioned himself as having a significant impact, comes crawling back to America?
Who after being denied entrance to Russia has a hissy fit and slashes his own wrists and then writes in his "Historic Diary" that he decided to "end it" and that Rimma will come to "find me dead" and to top it off, the Russians put Oswald in the "insanity ward"
Who beats his wife.
Who attempts to kill General Walker, does a sane man kill someone he doesn't even know for a cause?
Who uses an alias to buy murder weapons.
Who kills a President?, if that isn't absolutely bonkers crazy then I don't know what is.
Who kills a poor cop for simply stopping him.
Who tries to kill more cops when he's arrested.
Who tells the most absurd lies to his interrogators.

Oswald was a disturbed young man who through violence sought to change the World.

JohnM

Oswald was both stupid and crazy.

Really? Did you know the man personally or are you just accepting at face value the BS others have told you?

[John Mytton]

Oswald was both stupid and crazy.

Really? Did you know the man personally or are you just accepting at face value the BS others have told you?

Huh? I don't have to know Hitler personally to establish he was both "stupid and crazy".

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Huh? I don't have to know Hitler personally to establish he was both "stupid and crazy".

JohnM

So, I don't have to know you personally to establish that you are "stupid and crazy" and not to be taken seriously?

[John Mytton]

So, I don't have to know you personally to establish that you are "stupid and crazy" and not to be taken seriously?

Unlike Hitler and Oswald who we know very well, outside of this Forum you have no idea of who I am, making your analogy pointless.

JohnM