Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
Andrew Mason, Marjan Rynkiewicz

Author Topic: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.  (Read 15600 times)

Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #184 on: January 17, 2025, 06:28:43 PM »
Advertisement

 I agree with the general observation that the Lady In Blue is talking to someone over her (R) shoulder. The Gold Jacket Lady is trying to get hair away from her face as she is running forward. I do Not see any "head snaps" directed toward the TSBD.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #184 on: January 17, 2025, 06:28:43 PM »


Offline Brian Roselle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #185 on: January 17, 2025, 08:05:15 PM »
I don't know what you are referring to but his WC testimony is pretty clear that there was a shot after the one that hit him and he was not hit on the first shot.
I have compiled them all here.  I have added one more: NBC reporter Robert MacNeil so there are 63 witnesses, 48 of whom specifically recalled the 1.......2...3 pattern.
I don't know of anyone other than Emmett Hudson who changed his recollection of the spacing of the shots.  It would be helpful if you could actually give us references to their statements.  It is not really persuasive to suggest that witnesses were vague and not sure by giving us your vague and unsure impressions about what they may have said.

The distribution looks like this:


Listen to reporters Robert Jackson and Robert MacNeil speaking 50 years later. They still comment on the spacing:
Jackson at 1:30 and MacNeil at 00:22


If your graph is accepted by the research community as being complete and correct, then I don’t know how to explain it. It is basically opposite of the non-testimony forensic evidence I’ve seen that shows that there was an early shot and equal spacing.
It reminds me of the HSCA acoustics conclusion of 95% confidence of 4 or more shots, while at the same time the HSCA had data in hand that showed testimony on the number of shots which showed ~95% less than 4 shots. Just nuts.
 
For equal spacing videos, I have to go back and find more of the ones I recalled, but I already had on my computer references on equal shot spacing on these clips:

Dave Wiegman appeared to have the shot spacing engrained in his memory.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WuZnGGsRlPViCK5mnxjM3d6Acsvag8H7/view?usp=sharing

On this clip there were 3 that recalled equal spacing, Harold Norman, the man after him, and the last man.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/139KZKSTu7bW9GRo18ed8kq3X9rWd3NUT/view?usp=sharing

I’m curious as to why you added McNeil to your list of witness with reliable shot spacing testimony. Didn’t we just determine he was not even in the Plaza during the shooting and his estimate on the first shot timing was nearly 10 seconds in error?



Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5357
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #186 on: January 17, 2025, 08:35:03 PM »
I think it is helpful to take a step back and just try to apply common sense.  That still may not result in the correct conclusion but it gives some context to consider.  Here we are discussing Oswald hitting his target twice and missing once.  But he just doesn't miss his target.  He misses the entire car.  No one standing alongside the road in that area or in the motorcade is hit.  No one apparently even sees a bullet strike the road.  Someone a good distance away is injured by a fragment. 

So what explains Oswald missing the target so badly on a first early shot, but hitting his target twice on even longer shots?  I don't think a steeper shooting angle completely explains that.  Perhaps it can be argued that Oswald had to rush the first shot.  That's still a wide miss not to even strike the car.  Still the most common sense explanation to me is that Oswald tracked the limo through the scope into the path of the tree (the largest and most obvious obstruction between himself and the target).  He lost sight of the target just as it moved under the tree, he fired the shot at that moment, and perhaps the bullet fragmented off a tree limb at a level several feet above the street and traveled into the distance over the heads of the immediate bystanders.  That squares with a lot of the results.  1) missing the target so badly; 2) no one in the immediate vicinity of the limo being hit; and 3) someone a great distance away being struck by a fragment.  In regard to the latter, if the bullet fragments at ground level or from the head shot, it is much more likely to have struck someone in the limo or standing alongside Elm Street rather than to Tague's location. 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #186 on: January 17, 2025, 08:35:03 PM »


Online Tom Mahon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #187 on: January 18, 2025, 12:55:15 AM »
I think it is helpful to take a step back and just try to apply common sense.  That still may not result in the correct conclusion but it gives some context to consider.  Here we are discussing Oswald hitting his target twice and missing once.  But he just doesn't miss his target.  He misses the entire car.  No one standing alongside the road in that area or in the motorcade is hit.  No one apparently even sees a bullet strike the road.  Someone a good distance away is injured by a fragment. 

So what explains Oswald missing the target so badly on a first early shot, but hitting his target twice on even longer shots?  I don't think a steeper shooting angle completely explains that.  Perhaps it can be argued that Oswald had to rush the first shot.  That's still a wide miss not to even strike the car.  Still the most common sense explanation to me is that Oswald tracked the limo through the scope into the path of the tree (the largest and most obvious obstruction between himself and the target).  He lost sight of the target just as it moved under the tree, he fired the shot at that moment, and perhaps the bullet fragmented off a tree limb at a level several feet above the street and traveled into the distance over the heads of the immediate bystanders.  That squares with a lot of the results.  1) missing the target so badly; 2) no one in the immediate vicinity of the limo being hit; and 3) someone a great distance away being struck by a fragment.  In regard to the latter, if the bullet fragments at ground level or from the head shot, it is much more likely to have struck someone in the limo or standing alongside Elm Street rather than to Tague's location.

A woman by the name of Marvin (sic) Faye Chism said she saw a bullet strike the pavement near the limo shortly after it had turned onto Elm Street.

If Oswald was standing and awkwardly leaning forward for that steeply-downward-angled "Z-124" shot at JFK's head as he was riding in the rapidly moving limo (from Oswald's POV) -- standing and leaning forward because it was a steeply-downward-angled shot and the window was only about 1/4 open -- it could explain how he managed to "miss everything."

James Tague was probably nicked by a bullet fragment from the fatal Z-313 head shot.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2025, 01:08:26 AM by Tom Mahon »

Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5357
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2025, 01:55:02 AM »
A woman by the name of Marvin (sic) Faye Chism said she saw a bullet strike the pavement near the limo shortly after it had turned onto Elm Street.

If Oswald was standing and awkwardly leaning forward for that steeply-downward-angled "Z-124" shot at JFK's head as he was riding in the rapidly moving limo (from Oswald's POV) -- standing and leaning forward because it was a steeply-downward-angled shot and the window was only about 1/4 open -- it could explain how he managed to "miss everything."

James Tague was probably nicked by a bullet fragment from the fatal Z-313 head shot.

A US Marine trained shooter doesn't miss the entire car at a shorter distance because he was "leaning forward."   That's a very wide miss at a shorter distance.  If the bullet hits the road, it fragments in the presence of many law enforcement personnel in close proximity or bystanders on Elm St.   The fragments do not take flight above their heads and strike Tague standing in the distance.  I can't prove it and don't rely on junk science to support it, but the most obvious explanation is that Oswald tunnel visionrd the shot through the scope into the treeline and missed for that reason.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #188 on: January 18, 2025, 01:55:02 AM »


Online Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
    • SPMLaw
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #189 on: January 18, 2025, 03:40:53 AM »

If your graph is accepted by the research community as being complete and correct, then I don’t know how to explain it.
The linked paper contains quotes of all the statements about the shot spacing with sources.  In addition, there were many who said they heard a shot and then two more shots without explicitly providing a relative spacing.

If the witnesses were unreliable or just guessing one would expect roughly equal distribution of the three shot spacing possibilities.

The witnesses were consistent on the number of shots - as seen in this distribution based on the study conducted for the HSCA:



Quote
It is basically opposite of the non-testimony forensic evidence I’ve seen that shows that there was an early shot and equal spacing.

And what forensic evidence would that be?
Quote
Dave Wiegman appeared to have the shot spacing engrained in his memory.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WuZnGGsRlPViCK5mnxjM3d6Acsvag8H7/view?usp=sharing
Interesting that his equally spaced shots are about 6.8 seconds from beginning to end.

Quote
On this clip there were 3 that recalled equal spacing, Harold Norman, the man after him, and the last man.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/139KZKSTu7bW9GRo18ed8kq3X9rWd3NUT/view?usp=sharing
You have to be careful to review all of a witness’s statements.  Norman also said that JFK “slumped or something” in response to the first shot. 3H191.
Quote
I’m curious as to why you added McNeil to your list of witness with reliable shot spacing testimony. Didn’t we just determine he was not even in the Plaza during the shooting and his estimate on the first shot timing was nearly 10 seconds in error?
MacNeil heard the shots and recalled the pattern.  There is no suggestion that the shots could not be heard on Main St. prior to Houston. In fact, L.C. Smith (19H516) said he was standing at the front door of the Sheriff’s office on Main Street when he heard the first shot. He said he ran to the corner and when he got there he heard two more shots.

Online Tom Mahon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #190 on: January 18, 2025, 04:38:46 AM »
A US Marine trained shooter doesn't miss the entire car at a shorter distance because he was "leaning forward."   That's a very wide miss at a shorter distance.  If the bullet hits the road, it fragments in the presence of many law enforcement personnel in close proximity or bystanders on Elm St.   The fragments do not take flight above their heads and strike Tague standing in the distance.  I can't prove it and don't rely on junk science to support it, but the most obvious explanation is that Oswald tunnel visionrd the shot through the scope into the treeline and missed for that reason.

If you'd watched the PBS NOVA special, "Cold Case JFK," you'd realize that the Haag father & son team (I can't remember their first names at the moment) proved that a bullet like Oswald's when fired from a high-powered rifle like Oswald's disintegrates into "nothingness" when it strikes asphalt.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2025, 04:39:39 AM by Tom Mahon »

Online Royell Storing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2856
Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #191 on: January 18, 2025, 01:07:49 PM »

  You guys struggling to force 3 shots outta that sniper's nest is a WC Knockoff. It didn't work then or now. What you really got are at least 2 shooters and shots being fired almost simultaneously.  If your ridiculous description of a shooter standing up and leaning out of a 1/2 open window to fire a shot Straight Down into the pavement were true, it would only be true in what used to be known as a "Screwball Comedy". Remember SA Hickey's "Original Report". The 1st report was fired at "ground level", the 2nd & 3rd reports did Not sound like the 1st report. Minimum 2 Shooters, different weapons/different ammo.   

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #191 on: January 18, 2025, 01:07:49 PM »