Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.

[Royell Storing]

I can understand that what you and Royell are saying about Kilduff not feeling the repercussion so much as hearing it, that seems reasonable because of his car, but Kilduff was pretty insistent about the loudness and direction of the shots on his right ear. And as you mention Weigman, saying he also felt it, was in his open car and got out after the third shot.

As far as feeling a shock wave, I’m in agreement with you, I’m skeptical that anyone, anywhere in the entire plaza would feel the shock waves.

  Remember, on the Wiegman Film, we can see the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass as Wiegman is running down Elm St. This gives credibility to Wiegman saying that he felt the compression of a bullet on his face. BOTH Wiegman on foot, and the JFK Limo were on Elm St at the same time. A horizontally positioned shooter could have still been firing at the Limo as it went toward/under the Triple Underpass.

[Brian Roselle]

I’m not a ballistic expert, but how I think about it is that there would seem to be three aspects to a carcano shot, and maybe some folks refer to these aspects differently, so I'll describe my nomenclature.

 I think about the carcano muzzle blast as kind of a composition of effects. First the hot gasses in the barrel expanding rapidly from the heat of reaction and the gasses moving out of the barrel very fast pushing the bullet by pressure build up, the gasses kind of acting like small molecular bullets with mass and velocity moving forward pushing the bullet to exit. Other rifles might have a muzzle brake to redirect the gasses backwards acting like jet airplane thrust reversers to mitigate the recoil effect of the gun on the shooter.

Then after exit the fast moving carcano gasses hit the atmosphere and dissipate quickly but generates the loud sound wave I think of when referring to a muzzle blast. This wave propagates outward spherically in all directions, dissipating in loudness as it expands, but is the loud sound people hear from the shot. This is what would hit Zapruder and cause a startle jiggle (from a loud sound startle reaction, not a direct force pushing on the camera). The last aspect is what I was referring to as the shock wave, when the bullets fly faster than the speed of sound they create a separate cone shaped sound wave that propagates out behind at an angle from the bullet/trajectory of the bullet at an angle (Mach angle) depending on the supersonic speed of the bullet. It’s a distinct crack sound and perception depends on people’s distance from the trajectory and how close the bullet goes by your ear, but in most situations is typically not as loud as the muzzle blast one hears.

Does this jive with any of the ballistic experts studying the case?  The question is "would the muzzle blast around the base of the depository building when people have their face towards the building, have enough energy to generate a feeling sensation on the face as well as a loud sensation on the ear drum?" . I don't know but assume its possible based on Wiegman's comments based on his comments while being on Houston near Elm.

[Charles Collins]

I’m not a ballistic expert, but how I think about it is that there would seem to be three aspects to a carcano shot, and maybe some folks refer to these aspects differently, so I'll describe my nomenclature.

 I think about the carcano muzzle blast as kind of a composition of effects. First the hot gasses in the barrel expanding rapidly from the heat of reaction and the gasses moving out of the barrel very fast pushing the bullet by pressure build up, the gasses kind of acting like small molecular bullets with mass and velocity moving forward pushing the bullet to exit. Other rifles might have a muzzle brake to redirect the gasses backwards acting like jet airplane thrust reversers to mitigate the recoil effect of the gun on the shooter.

Then after exit the fast moving carcano gasses hit the atmosphere and dissipate quickly but generates the loud sound wave I think of when referring to a muzzle blast. This wave propagates outward spherically in all directions, dissipating in loudness as it expands, but is the loud sound people hear from the shot. This is what would hit Zapruder and cause a startle jiggle (from a loud sound startle reaction, not a direct force pushing on the camera). The last aspect is what I was referring to as the shock wave, when the bullets fly faster than the speed of sound they create a separate cone shaped sound wave that propagates out behind at an angle from the bullet/trajectory of the bullet at an angle (Mach angle) depending on the supersonic speed of the bullet. It’s a distinct crack sound and perception depends on people’s distance from the trajectory and how close the bullet goes by your ear, but in most situations is typically not as loud as the muzzle blast one hears.

Does this jive with any of the ballistic experts studying the case?  The question is "would the muzzle blast around the base of the depository building when people have their face towards the building, have enough energy to generate a feeling sensation on the face as well as a loud sensation on the ear drum?" . I don't know but assume its possible based on Wiegman's comments based on his comments while being on Houston near Elm.

Due to the supersonic speed of the bullet, the sharp crack of the shockwave would be heard before the sound of the muzzle blast. Think of the ka part of a “ka-pow” type of loud sound that is often associated with hight powered rifles. As far as feeling it on the face goes, I think some people might be able to feel the sound wave. I once felt the sound of a space shuttle launch (~7-miles away from me) in my chest.

[Charles Collins]

Thanks Brian. LOL, on the Rorschach test. I just plan to see how your description fits with how my model looks from Hughes’ camera angle with standing versus sitting snipers. That’s all. Thanks again for the description.

I made a couple of short clips showing my model of the sniper's nest from approximately the same angle as Hughes' camera on 11/22/63. These might help us when trying to locate any movement in the window (as the makers of the enhanced Hughes film clip suggest).

First is a clip showing the sniper standing up to fire a first shot at a Z133 target. Then sitting back down to fire the shots at the Z224 and Z313 targets. The blue tape on the metal pole represents the approximate height (~18" above the open part of the window) of the next higher cross member of the window frame. Note that I do not operate the bolt of the rifle. So some time needs to be added to allow for that. One of the reasons for not operating the bolt is that this rifle is left-handed and I am holding it on the right shoulder to simulate LHO shooting right handed (this applies to both clips).





Next is a clip showing the sniper sitting for all three shots. This is the way I currently believe makes the most sense to me. Note that the first shot occurs as the rifle is first brought up and is being aimed down in order to begin tracking the movement of the limo. This first shot is inadvertent as a result of bumping the muzzle end on the window box. The sniper then quickly recovers and completes the last two shots. I simply do not currently believe that he could have missed the entire limo if his first shot was intentional.

[Brian Roselle]

Due to the supersonic speed of the bullet, the sharp crack of the shockwave would be heard before the sound of the muzzle blast. Think of the ka part of a “ka-pow” type of loud sound that is often associated with hight powered rifles. As far as feeling it on the face goes, I think some people might be able to feel the sound wave. I once felt the sound of a space shuttle launch (~7-miles away from me) in my chest.

That's a good point on the shockwave order of hearing. I recall that, and that there are exclusion zones for the shockwave depending on the shot direction. I think Wiegman would not have heard the shockwave for the shots but definitely would have heard the muzzle blasts.

OK, I am jealous about the space shuttle launch. I always wanted to see a rocket launch and was in Daytona once for my one opportunity to go see it, then they canceled. Your experience is a great example of feeling a sound wave.

[Royell Storing]

I’m not a ballistic expert, but how I think about it is that there would seem to be three aspects to a carcano shot, and maybe some folks refer to these aspects differently, so I'll describe my nomenclature.

 I think about the carcano muzzle blast as kind of a composition of effects. First the hot gasses in the barrel expanding rapidly from the heat of reaction and the gasses moving out of the barrel very fast pushing the bullet by pressure build up, the gasses kind of acting like small molecular bullets with mass and velocity moving forward pushing the bullet to exit. Other rifles might have a muzzle brake to redirect the gasses backwards acting like jet airplane thrust reversers to mitigate the recoil effect of the gun on the shooter.

Then after exit the fast moving carcano gasses hit the atmosphere and dissipate quickly but generates the loud sound wave I think of when referring to a muzzle blast. This wave propagates outward spherically in all directions, dissipating in loudness as it expands, but is the loud sound people hear from the shot. This is what would hit Zapruder and cause a startle jiggle (from a loud sound startle reaction, not a direct force pushing on the camera). The last aspect is what I was referring to as the shock wave, when the bullets fly faster than the speed of sound they create a separate cone shaped sound wave that propagates out behind at an angle from the bullet/trajectory of the bullet at an angle (Mach angle) depending on the supersonic speed of the bullet. It’s a distinct crack sound and perception depends on people’s distance from the trajectory and how close the bullet goes by your ear, but in most situations is typically not as loud as the muzzle blast one hears.

Does this jive with any of the ballistic experts studying the case?  The question is "would the muzzle blast around the base of the depository building when people have their face towards the building, have enough energy to generate a feeling sensation on the face as well as a loud sensation on the ear drum?" . I don't know but assume its possible based on Wiegman's comments based on his comments while being on Houston near Elm.

   Wiegman was Not, "...on Houston near Elm" when he felt the compression of a bullet on his face. We can discuss where we think he probably was, but it was Not, "...ON Houston near Elm.

[Brian Roselle]

   Wiegman was Not, "...on Houston near Elm" when he felt the compression of a bullet on his face. We can discuss where we think he probably was, but it was Not, "...ON Houston near Elm.

I am using his comments I heard on a TV special, Death in Dealey Plaza, where he said he felt the third shot, and actually felt the compression on his face, knew then it was not any cherry bomb, and decided he needed to run forward as the car was not going fast enough. So he then got out of the car and began running and turned on his camera. The quote was related to a time before he had gotten out of the car and was just at, and shortly after, the third shot.

On the Michael Russ motorcade diagram, he was still on Houston but getting close to turning on Elm at z313. That is the basis of my comments.

[Brian Roselle]

I made a couple of short clips showing my model of the sniper's nest from approximately the same angle as Hughes' camera on 11/22/63. These might help us when trying to locate any movement in the window (as the makers of the enhanced Hughes film clip suggest).

First is a clip showing the sniper standing up to fire a first shot at a Z133 target. Then sitting back down to fire the shots at the Z224 and Z313 targets. The blue tape on the metal pole represents the approximate height (~18" above the open part of the window) of the next higher cross member of the window frame. Note that I do not operate the bolt of the rifle. So some time needs to be added to allow for that. One of the reasons for not operating the bolt is that this rifle is left-handed and I am holding it on the right shoulder to simulate LHO shooting right handed (this applies to both clips).






Next is a clip showing the sniper sitting for all three shots. This is the way I currently believe makes the most sense to me. Note that the first shot occurs as the rifle is first brought up and is being aimed down in order to begin tracking the movement of the limo. This first shot is inadvertent as a result of bumping the muzzle end on the window box. The sniper then quickly recovers and completes the last two shots. I simply do not currently believe that he could have missed the entire limo if his first shot was intentional.

That’s a great job on the window set up. I really do like the idea of modeling to get a sense of the actual dynamics. It seems to have given you the idea of bumping boxes with the gun as a first shot control issue which I don’t think would come to mind to me by just looking at photographs of the snipers nest.

I am not predisposed to any particular shooting position for the first shot, but am pretty confident in the trigger time.

Your sitting position and bumping the box could be what happened to cause a miss. It could also be a part of a multivariable dynamic with a flow of adrenalin and rushing to get in a very tempting close first shot after picking up on the target just below, with the angular velocity of the target at that time something beyond what he ever trained on. It might not have been as simple as one specific cause.

One thing that I still wonder about is in that configuration, sitting the whole time, it appears to me Oswald, because of the wall right there by him would lose sight of his target perhaps as early as half way down Houston and not be able to pick up on it again until the limo was between say, him and the line-of-sight Hughes had to him.  This could be, but it seems that would have caused a really rushed first shot if picking up on the target again was so late. When standing or seating in your model, would the view facilitate seeing the limo the whole time, which if standing could still could facilitate a semi standing, crouching, or quick returning to seating position just before firing.

I guess my main concern, which is not a show stopper, is when in the seated position would one readily have a view extending to the east side of Houston Street the whole way from Main to Elm? I’m guessing the Secret Service re-enactment filming position was not controlled to replicate sniper’s nest window opening, box orientations, etc, but it did keep the limo in view the whole time after entering the Plaza.