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Author Topic: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico  (Read 343 times)

Offline Bill Brown

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In my "Oak Cliff Time Trials" thread, regarding where Oswald may have been heading when he left the rooming house and what he may have been thinking, I speculate that Oswald was trying to get to the bus stop outside of the Jefferson Branch Library at Jefferson and Marsalis.  I state that Oswald's transfer was good at that bus stop at Jefferson & Marsalis until 1:15 and if the transfer was for a bus line where a bus stopped there only once per hour, then the transfer would be good for the next available bus.

Quoting "With Malice", I also state in the "Oak Cliff Time Trials" thread that Oswald could have caught the Lancaster Road bus at that bus stop at 1:30 which would have taken Oswald south from that bus stop to Greyhound bus connections through Laredo, TX and on to Mexico.

Regarding Oswald's motivations and actions once he walked out the front door of the rooming house, I have researched this stuff for years having always been curious about what could have been in Oswald's mind and what his destination may have been.  I worked closely with Frank Badalson and Dale Myers through phone calls and Skype sessions in order to post the best accurate information when preparing the "Oak Cliff Time Trials" thread.

Along with the tedious read that was the Warren Commission testimony of bus driver Cecil McWatters (which I read in full for the first time almost twenty years ago), I have read the David Belin papers pertaining to J. Lee Rankin's April '64 request to the U.S. Secret Service for bus route information relative to bus travel from Dallas to Mexico.

============

Regarding the bus transfer:

"The transfer normally given by the bus line is valid for 15 minutes.  If the buses to which the transfer is being made are scheduled an hour apart, the transfer would be good for the next bus, regardless of the length of time from leaving the bus from which the transfer ticket was obtained.  The transfer would be valid anywhere along the route of the bus from which the ticket was received, and could be used at any routed bus crossing that particular bus line, i.e. if an individual rode on bus route A obtained a transfer therefrom, the individual could conceivably transfer to bus line B at any point along the route of bus line A, provided the transfer be used within 15 minutes of the time of issue or upon the next scheduled bus after the time of issue."

They also determined that the Lancaster Road bus stopped at the bus stop at Jefferson & Marsalis (city bus stops were used by various city bus lines).

To simplify it, let's say bus route A is the Marsalis line which obviously travels down Marsalis Avenue.  Let's say bus route B is the Lancaster Road bus.  Since both buses use the bus stop at Jefferson and Marsalis, this means that if one has a transfer for the Marsalis line, he could transfer to the Lancaster bus.  This Lancaster Road bus would take Oswald south from that bus stop to Greyhound bus connections through Laredo, TX and on to Mexico (more on that in a moment).

============

J. Lee Rankin (General Counsel, Warren Commission) asked the United States Secret Service to provide information on bus travel from Dallas to Mexico.  Secret Service agents interviewed Mr. McFadden, Terminal manager, Greyhound bus depot, Dallas, TX.

"During the period in question, all buses traveling to the Mexican border would stop between terminals to pick up passengers both in cities and on the open highway.  This stop would be contingent on traffic regulations and safety procedures.  The passengers could then purchase their ticket on the bus."

Oswald had $13.87 on him when he was arrested.  One could get from Dallas to Laredo for $12.80.

David Belin called Forrest Sorrels, Secret Service Special Agent In Charge of the Dallas office and requested information of bus routes and taxi routes in the Jefferson-Marsalis area.

Belin wanted to know if the Greyhound, Continental or City bus lines could be flagged anywhere along the route.  The answer:

"The City bus lines have designated bus stops and can only be boarded at these bus stops.  The Continental and Greyhound bus lines can be flagged by any persons anywhere along the route; these lines will stop and pick these persons up.  The ticket is then purchased on the bus for cash."

Belin wanted to know what bus routes could be boarded at the bus stop at Jefferson & Marsalis:

"The Marsalis bus route, which travels from the downtown Dallas area to the Singing Hills residential area in Oak Cliff, Dallas; The Sunset Hampton bus route which travels south on Jefferson to Hampton Road, then returns to Dallas as the Lagow and Second bus travels north on Jefferson to the downtown area. -- Lancaster bus, begins at Kingsley Avenue and travels north on Lancaster making a stop at the Veterans Administration Hospital."

Belin also wanted to know what is the route of the Greyhound bus line stopping at the Lisbon Flag stop:

"The Lisbon Flag stop is a designation for a stop for Greyhound buses at the Veterans Administration Hospital, which is located on Lancaster Road.  The bus travels from the downtown area across the Corinth Street Viaduct to Corinth Street; down Corinth Street to Lancaster; and then down Lancaster to the Veterans Administration Hospital."

"The Greyhound bus line will pick up any passengers upon being flagged anywhere along their route provided it is safe to stop on the highway or streets."

If you read what I am spelling out above, from the bus stop at Jefferson & Marsalis, one could catch the Lancaster bus and take it south to the Veterans Administration Hospital.  Then from the hospital, one could board the Greyhound bus which would take one to the border at Laredo, TX.

Have a look at the David Belin papers regarding City and Greyhound bus routes between Dallas and Mexico:

https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/sites/default/files/pdf_documents/library/document/0393/23811296.pdf
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 07:06:11 AM by Bill Brown »

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Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2025, 04:10:43 PM »
Bill: It's not clear to me how he's going to get into Mexico legally, past the border guards? He's going to need a visa to get there. Just as before when he went to the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy. This is the one he used below (stamped when he entered on September 26 and when he left on October 3). I would guess Mexican authorities on the border would have been alerted to watch for an Oswald? I imagine he could have gotten off the bus at Laredo and walked across the border? Then what?

I always wondered why he didn't tell Whaley to wait? Go in and get a change of clothes and his revolver. Then have him take him back to the bus station or another location to catch a bus? He's winging it, making it up on the fly since it seems to me he didn't think he'd survive the attempt. Why go back to your rooming house? That's incredibly risky. Just to get the revolver?

A sidebar comment on Cuba: Marina said that when he returned from Mexico that he told her he had given up on the Cuban revolution; that his treatment by the officials at the consulate angered him (Oswald complained in "Marina and Lee": "The same kind of bureaucrats as in Russia. No point going there"). I find it hard to believe he would abandon his long time support for Castro simply over some bureaucratic screw up. *And* he called the Soviet Embassy on Tuesday inquiring about the status of his passport, the one he needed to show the Cubans before they would let him in. This is all after being thrown out of the Consulate. Shorter: he's still trying to get to Cuba even after the bureaucrats mistreated him.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 04:57:19 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2025, 04:56:49 PM »
Bill: It's not clear to me how he's going to get into Mexico legally, past the border guards? He's going to need a visa to get there. Just as before when he went to the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy. This is the one he used below (stamped when he entered on September 26 and when he left on October 3). I would guess Mexican authorities on the border would have been alerted to watch for an Oswald? I imagine he could have gotten off the bus at Laredo and walked across the border? Then what?

I always wondered why he didn't tell Whaley to wait? Go in and get a change of clothes and his revolver. Then have him take him back to the bus station or another location to catch a bus?

A sidebar comment on Cuba: Marina said that when he returned from Mexico that he told her he had given up on the Cuban revolution; that his treatment by the officials at the consulate angered him (Oswald complained in "Marina and Lee": "The same kind of bureaucrats as in Russia. No point going there"). I find it hard to believe he would abandon his long time support for Castro simply over some bureaucratic screw up. *And* he called the Soviet Embassy on Tuesday inquiring about the status of his passport, the one he needed to show the Cubans before they would let him in. This is all after being thrown out of the Consulate. Shorter: he's still trying to get to Cuba even after the bureaucrats mistreated him.



And* he called the Soviet Embassy on Tuesday inquiring about the status of his passport…

This was the Tuesday before the assassination (11/19/63)? Is that the same day that the motorcade was announced in the Dallas newspapers?

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2025, 04:56:49 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2025, 05:24:12 PM »
And* he called the Soviet Embassy on Tuesday inquiring about the status of his passport…

This was the Tuesday before the assassination (11/19/63)? Is that the same day that the motorcade was announced in the Dallas newspapers?
No, it's when he was still in Mexico City in late September/October. And my mistake on the date: it was October 1st not the 3rd. He called about the status of the visa request he had made earlier. So, the Cubans kick him out, say he's not a friend of "the Revolution" but he's still trying to get in? His complaints about the bureaucracy seem opportunistic to me.

Here's the phone call: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=5742#relPageId=49

« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 05:25:38 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2025, 05:33:22 PM »
No, it's when he was still in Mexico City in late September/October. And my mistake on the date: it was October 1st not the 3rd. He called about the status of the visa request he had made earlier. So, the Cubans kick him out, say he's not a friend of "the Revolution" but he's still trying to get in? His complaints about the bureaucracy seem opportunistic to me.

Here's the phone call: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=5742#relPageId=49


Thanks Steve.

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2025, 05:33:22 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2025, 05:51:47 PM »

Thanks Steve.
Sure, you are welcome.

We've got the KGB and Cuban intelligence, the CIA and FBI and anti-Castro Cubans and all of that Cold War intrigue - assassination plots, Operation Mongoose, covert operations - going on. And with all of this happening along comes this Oswald guy and you ask yourself: "What's going on here? How does he fit into this?"

It's hard to fight the urge to find something *more* behind his act then simply that of an angry disaffected guy striking back at the world he hated. And the persons who personified it. Fundamentally, I think that's all it was. There's a thin crust between civilization and barbarism and one determined guy with a rifle can break through that and do a lot of damage.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 06:39:36 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Online Tom Mahon

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2025, 08:15:12 PM »
Here's the phone call: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=5742#relPageId=49

FWIW, in his 1975 or 1976 Church Committee testimony, James Angleton said that Ivan Obyedkov, the Soviet Embassy security officer with whom Oswald or "Oswald" spoke over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line on 10/1/63, was a Kremlin-loyal triple agent, i.e., the CIA mistakenly thought it had successfully recruited him.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 08:17:18 PM by Tom Mahon »

Online Tom Mahon

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2025, 08:32:08 PM »
Sure, you are welcome.

We've got the KGB and Cuban intelligence, the CIA and FBI and anti-Castro Cubans and all of that Cold War intrigue - assassination plots, Operation Mongoose, covert operations - going on. And with all of this happening along comes this Oswald guy and you ask yourself: "What's going on here? How does he fit into this?"

It's hard to fight the urge to find something *more* behind his act then simply that of an angry disaffected guy striking back at the world he hated. And the persons who personified it. Fundamentally, I think that's all it was. There's a thin crust between civilization and barbarism and one determined guy with a rifle can break through that and do a lot of damage.

John M. Newman and others have said that the person who called the Soviet Embassy on 10/1/63 wasn't Oswald, but an Oswald impersonator who didn't know the details of what had happened during real-deal Oswald's visits to the Soviet and Cuban Consulates, and that the mentioning of the Department 13-radioactive* name "Kostikov" by Obyedkov during the 10/1/63 tapped-by-CIA phone call effectively planted a CIA-protecting WW III virus in Oswald's CIA file.

*The name "Kostikov" was made Department 13 radioactive in 1962 when Kremlin-loyal Aleksei Kulak (J. Edgar Hoover's shielded-from-CIA FEDORA) at the FBI's NYC field office told the FBI that Kostikov's charge at the U.N., Igor Brykin, was a Department 13 agent or officer.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 08:38:44 PM by Tom Mahon »

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Re: David Belin Papers, City & Greyhound Bus Routes, Dallas to Mexico
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2025, 08:32:08 PM »