If I had planned the conspiracy ...

[Dan O'meara]

Bonnie Ray said he sat in the isle where his coke was and never went close to the sniper's nest.
I have a theory that Williams when looking for his friends would have checked all the windows because why wouldn't he check the windows overlooking Elm? and would have seen Oswald and perhaps stayed there with Oswald and had his lunch then went down when he heard his friends arrive. In fact the stories coming from these men was a little flexible as they got their stories straight. I reckon Williams who was black wanted no part of being with Oswald in the minutes before they assassination.
In fact the WC I believe share this same theory because when this came up at Williams testimony Dulles suddenly and unexpectedly brought up if Williams had trouble with the law, why at this precise time while questioning would Dulles try this tactic?

JohnM

This is quite an extraordinary theory for an LNer to have and I don't doubt for a second that you are out on your own with this one.
I can't see the likes of Tricky Dicky backing you up as far as this particular theory is concerned.
However, there is a lot of evidence to support this theory.
The most important evidence, by far, is that six of the first officers at the location of the shooting on the 6th floor reported seeing lunch remains in the southeast corner - Mooney, Hill, McCurley, Weatherford, Brewer and Haygood. A number of these officers describe seeing a partially eaten piece of chicken. There is also a small lunch sack and a bottle of Dr Pepper.
The back wall of the Sniper's Nest consisted of three stacks of boxes. Each stack was made up of four boxes but, because of the way the boxes were arranged, the middle stack was taller than the outer stacks. At least three of these first responders specifically place the lunch remains on top of one of the stacks of boxes that form the back wall of the Sniper's Nest. However, by the time Fritz arrived on the scene the partially eaten piece of chicken had been placed back inside the lunch sack and the lunch sack, along with the Dr Pepper bottle, had been moved about 10 yards away, near a two-wheeler trolley by the third set of windows from the east side of the 6th floor. This is where they were photographed by the DPD Crime Lab boys, and this is where Bonnie Ray Williams testified to the Warren Commission that he had his lunch.
It is to the great shame of the Warren Commission that the testimonies of the six first responders was ignored even though they completely contradicted the testimony of Bonnie Ray Williams, who may well have been coerced into agreeing that he left the remains where they were photographed. IMO the Commission knew that Bonnie Ray's lunch remains had been initially discovered on top of the Sniper's Nest but they ignored this fact because having Bonnie Ray Williams in the Sniper's Nest made everything way too complicated.
Bonnie Ray actually hints at being in the Sniper's Nest in his WC testimony when he is asked about having his lunch on the 6th floor:

Mr. Ball:
What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?

Mr. Williams:
First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.

He describes two different locations. In the first one there are some boxes behind him that he leans back on. This could be the back wall of the Sniper's Nest. He then describes moving to the two-wheeler trolley where he had his lunch but we know he didn't do that because his lunch remains were found on top of the Sniper's Nest.
We are supposed to believe that he sat on this uncomfortable metal trolley, squashed up against a dirty, closed window for almost half an hour.

[John Mytton]

I read through DVP's argument about the Baker affidavit and I'm sure you are proposing the same nonsense - the Burnett either shoved a pre-written affidavit in Baker's face because he was in such a massive rush, Baker saw some mistakes and corrected them OR as Burnett was taking the statement from Baker he was adding details that Baker wasn't even saying and when Baker read over the statement he was shocked to discover these irrational additions.
Both are very silly theories born out of the need for Oswald to not have a coke in his hand when Baker first saw him.
Burnett simply dictated what Baker was saying. This was witnessed by Burnett AND Bobby Hargis.

Why couldn't Baker remember which floor it was?
The affidavit was taken ten months after the event itself and six months after his WC testimony. It all seemed done and dusted but then, out of nowhere, he has suddenly got an FBI agent insisting on another affidavit. He couldn't quite remember which floor it was but when he read through the statement he remembered it was definitely the 2nd floor, so he corrected the mistake. No big deal. Some people seem to think Baker wasn't then sharpest tool in the shed at the best of times.
Why did Baker say that the man in the lunchroom was drinking a coke?
Because that's what he remembered happening.
The idea that Burnett just threw it in there is laughable.
As is the idea that the fleeing assassin decided to stop off for a coke.
As is the idea that Baker saw Oswald moving through the vestibule door window.

Oswald reportedly told the officers questioning him that he was having his lunch in the domino room around the time of the shooting (which is when he saw Jarman and Norman making there way around to the west elevator). He then went up to the 2nd floor lunchroom and had just purchased a coke when Baker came in.
If this is true we can dispense with the ridiculous notion that the fleeing assassin stopped off for a coke.
We can also dispense with the apparent impossibility of Baker seeing Oswald moving through the vestibule door window. It makes more sense that Baker moved over to the vestibule door, looked through the window and saw Oswald in the lunchroom at the coke machine.

I read through DVP's argument about the Baker affidavit and I'm sure you are proposing the same nonsense - the Burnett either shoved a pre-written affidavit in Baker's face.....

For a comparison, here's the document in question as compared to Baker's affidavit and if you think they are written by the same person, then good luck to you.

Both are very silly theories born out of the need for Oswald to not have a coke in his hand when Baker first saw him.

This theory goes nowhere, Oswald was seen walking INTO the lunchroom and if he was carrying a coke then he was simply carrying around a coke, Big Deal, it was lunch time after all.

Why couldn't Baker remember which floor it was?

Baker wasn't a computer and every insignificant action wasn't necessary to remember with precise detail, their meaningless confrontation was explained away by Truly and that was that, because Baker obviously had bigger fish to fry on the upper floors. Also worth considering is that after entering the enclosed stairs you have no outside visual clues, and you walk up to a landing and then turn and go up a further set of stairs, so for someone not familiar with the building that can be deceiving.

JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

For a comparison, here's the document in question as compared to Baker's affidavit and if you think they are written by the same person, then good luck to you.

John, you really should read the posts you're responding to as it would save a lot of time.
You're point is that Burnett wrote the affidavit. I agree. I actually posted this:

"Burnett simply dictated what Baker was saying. This was witnessed by Burnett AND Bobby Hargis."


I also make the point that you and DVP want to think that Burnett added things to the affidavit without Baker's knowledge. That's why I posted these two possibilities:

"...Burnett either shoved a pre-written affidavit in Baker's face because he was in such a massive rush, Baker saw some mistakes and corrected them OR as Burnett was taking the statement from Baker he was adding details that Baker wasn't even saying and when Baker read over the statement he was shocked to discover these irrational additions."


You seem to be pushing the second silly possibility, that Burnett was randomly adding details to Baker's affidavit as he was taking it down.
This is one of these times when it's difficult to tell the difference between the LNer and Tinfoil mentalities.

This theory goes nowhere, Oswald was seen walking INTO the lunchroom and if he was carrying a coke then he was simply carrying around a coke, Big Deal, it was lunch time after all.

Oswald was NOT seen walking into the lunchroom.
Baker insists he saw some kind of vague movement through the vestibule door window. This has been demonstrated to be nonsense. The only way he could have seen movement through this small window is if it was a person moving from right to left from Baker's point of view. This could only mean someone entering the vestibule through the door that led to the long corridor and moving across to the lunchroom door.
This movement is represented by the green line in the diagram below. The red line represents Oswald's movement according to the Warren Commission and the "B" is Baker's approximate position when he was supposed to have seen this movement movement:

mouse click test page

The photo below is taken close to where Baker would have been standing when he claimed he saw this movement:



It is clear that anyone entering this door then turning immediately left would have been impossible to see from Baker's position.
That's why I posted the following:

"We can also dispense with the apparent impossibility of Baker seeing Oswald moving through the vestibule door window. It makes more sense that Baker moved over to the vestibule door, looked through the window and saw Oswald in the lunchroom at the coke machine."

Baker wasn't a computer and every insignificant action wasn't necessary to remember with precise detail, their meaningless confrontation was explained away by Truly and that was that, because Baker obviously had bigger fish to fry on the upper floors. Also worth considering is that after entering the enclosed stairs you have no outside visual clues, and you walk up to a landing and then turn and go up a further set of stairs, so for someone not familiar with the building that can be deceiving.

 
Read the post.
It was clearly a rhetorical question that I then answered:

"Why couldn't Baker remember which floor it was?
The affidavit was taken ten months after the event itself and six months after his WC testimony. It all seemed done and dusted but then, out of nowhere, he has suddenly got an FBI agent insisting on another affidavit. He couldn't quite remember which floor it was but when he read through the statement he remembered it was definitely the 2nd floor, so he corrected the mistake. No big deal. Some people seem to think Baker wasn't then sharpest tool in the shed at the best of times."

I then posed another rhetorical question that I then answered:

"Why did Baker say that the man in the lunchroom was drinking a coke?
Because that's what he remembered happening.
The idea that Burnett just threw it in there is laughable.
As is the idea that the fleeing assassin decided to stop off for a coke.
As is the idea that Baker saw Oswald moving through the vestibule door window."

Read the posts John, then I wouldn't basically have to re-post the whole thing clearing up your misunderstandings.

[John Mytton]

John, you really should read the posts you're responding to as it would save a lot of time.
You're point is that Burnett wrote the affidavit. I agree. I actually posted this:

"Burnett simply dictated what Baker was saying. This was witnessed by Burnett AND Bobby Hargis."


I also make the point that you and DVP want to think that Burnett added things to the affidavit without Baker's knowledge. That's why I posted these two possibilities:

"...Burnett either shoved a pre-written affidavit in Baker's face because he was in such a massive rush, Baker saw some mistakes and corrected them OR as Burnett was taking the statement from Baker he was adding details that Baker wasn't even saying and when Baker read over the statement he was shocked to discover these irrational additions."


You seem to be pushing the second silly possibility, that Burnett was randomly adding details to Baker's affidavit as he was taking it down.
This is one of these times when it's difficult to tell the difference between the LNer and Tinfoil mentalities.

Oswald was NOT seen walking into the lunchroom.
Baker insists he saw some kind of vague movement through the vestibule door window. This has been demonstrated to be nonsense. The only way he could have seen movement through this small window is if it was a person moving from right to left from Baker's point of view. This could only mean someone entering the vestibule through the door that led to the long corridor and moving across to the lunchroom door.
This movement is represented by the green line in the diagram below. The red line represents Oswald's movement according to the Warren Commission and the "B" is Baker's approximate position when he was supposed to have seen this movement movement:

mouse click test page

The photo below is taken close to where Baker would have been standing when he claimed he saw this movement:



It is clear that anyone entering this door then turning immediately left would have been impossible to see from Baker's position.
That's why I posted the following:

"We can also dispense with the apparent impossibility of Baker seeing Oswald moving through the vestibule door window. It makes more sense that Baker moved over to the vestibule door, looked through the window and saw Oswald in the lunchroom at the coke machine."


 
Read the post.
It was clearly a rhetorical question that I then answered:

"Why couldn't Baker remember which floor it was?
The affidavit was taken ten months after the event itself and six months after his WC testimony. It all seemed done and dusted but then, out of nowhere, he has suddenly got an FBI agent insisting on another affidavit. He couldn't quite remember which floor it was but when he read through the statement he remembered it was definitely the 2nd floor, so he corrected the mistake. No big deal. Some people seem to think Baker wasn't then sharpest tool in the shed at the best of times."

I then posed another rhetorical question that I then answered:

"Why did Baker say that the man in the lunchroom was drinking a coke?
Because that's what he remembered happening.
The idea that Burnett just threw it in there is laughable.
As is the idea that the fleeing assassin decided to stop off for a coke.
As is the idea that Baker saw Oswald moving through the vestibule door window."

Read the posts John, then I wouldn't basically have to re-post the whole thing clearing up your misunderstandings.

Read the posts John

I read your earlier posts where you seemingly didn't agree that both Truly's and Baker's documents were written by someone else, and you are generally inflexible and only double down on your beliefs, but I see now that you see the light!

It is clear that anyone entering this door then turning immediately left would have been impossible to see from Baker's position.
That's why I posted the following:

"We can also dispense with the apparent impossibility of Baker seeing Oswald moving through the vestibule door window. It makes more sense that Baker moved over to the vestibule door, looked through the window and saw Oswald in the lunchroom at the coke machine."

While trying to get to the top of the building, Baker was running and was quickly scanning his surroundings while doing so. So why on Earth would he waste time and specifically go over to the vestibule window? The reason he says, as he turned the corner that he saw a man moving away and that is an obvious red flag, and from his initial position he couldn't see into the lunchroom so Oswald must have been in the hallway outside the lunchroom entrance.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?
Mr. BAKER - As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----
Mr. DULLES - Gone on around and up?
Mr. BAKER - He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.

Baker goes on to further elaborate that another clue is that the door might have been closing.

Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.



Baker says that he ran up to the door and Oswald had moved away a similar distance indicating that Oswald must have been scooting away at a rate of knots. What would cause Oswald to be moving so quickly?

Mr. DULLES - You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and going through the door almost?
Mr. BAKER - Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving about as fast as I was.

I think that Oswald heard the men walking up the wooden stairs and got inside the vestibule door and moved quickly into the lunchroom.

JohnM

[Tom Mahon]

I think that Oswald heard the men walking up the wooden stairs and got inside the vestibule door and moved quickly into the lunchroom.

IIRC, Truly was ahead of Baker and had already started going up to the 3rd floor when Baker entered the "vestibule" to confront Oswald (either in the "vestibule," itself, or farther inside the lunchroom proper).

Truly, realizing that Baker was no longer following him, went back down and at least partially entered the "vestibule."

Did Truly keep the "vestibule" door open while Baker was dealing with Oswald in the lunchroom, or did it close behind him if-and-when he went completely inside the "vestibule" or even all the way into the lunchroom?

If the former, assuming that Vicki Adams "spaced out" as to how long she and Sandra Styles had stayed on the 4th floor before starting to go down the stairs, wouldn't they have noticed the "vestibule's" door being held open by Truly and/or heard the men talking as they (Adams and Styles) traversed the corner of the 2nd floor to continue going downstairs?

[John Mytton]

IIRC, Truly was ahead of Baker and had already started going up to the 3rd floor when Baker entered the "vestibule" to confront Oswald (either in the "vestibule," itself, or farther inside the lunchroom proper).

Yes thanks, in summarising my scenario I left out a small detail, so I will clarify my post, after Oswald heard footsteps he entered through the vestibule door and looked out through the window and saw Truly run past and up the stairs to the 3rd floor, then Oswald opened the door to proceed back down the stairs to the first floor when he was startled by Officer Baker, so retreated quickly into the lunchroom.
And obviously after seeing and being confronted by a Policeman coming up the stairs and fearing more, Oswald got his coke made the choice to proceed through the offices.

JohnM

[Tom Mahon]

After Oswald heard footsteps, he entered through the vestibule door and looked out through the window and saw Truly run past and up the stairs to the 3rd floor, then Oswald opened the door to proceed back down the stairs to the first floor when he was startled by Officer Baker, so he retreated quickly into the lunchroom. After being confronted by a policeman coming up the stairs and fearing more, Oswald got his coke made the choice to proceed through the offices.

Works for me -- as long Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor significantly longer than Adams thought they had, as long as the "vestibule door" was completely closed behind Truly while Baker was confronting Oswald, and as long as it took Baker and Truly significantly longer to get to the 2nd floor than they thought it had.

[Dan O'meara]

Yes thanks, in summarising my scenario I left out a small detail, so I will clarify my post, after Oswald heard footsteps he entered through the vestibule door and looked out through the window and saw Truly run past and up the stairs to the 3rd floor, then Oswald opened the door to proceed back down the stairs to the first floor when he was startled by Officer Baker, so retreated quickly into the lunchroom.
And obviously after seeing and being confronted by a Policeman coming up the stairs and fearing more, Oswald got his coke made the choice to proceed through the offices.

JohnM

 
Good story, John.
It accounts for why Truly didn't see Oswald entering the vestibule even though he was racing ahead of Baker.
Why Oswald was still by the window when Baker came up?
A panicked split-second decision to race through the nearest door into the lunchroom.
Oswald speeding across the lunchroom floor to get 20 ft away by the time Baker enters the vestibule.
Excellent speculation and I will keep this Reply in mind if you ever have the temerity to criticise me for speculating.