Lee Harvey Oswald Ordered The Rifle

[David Von Pein]

They didn't keep the actual envelope. They kept a microfiche copy of it.

Precisely.

(You beat me to it, Tim.)



Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

[Steve Howsley]

They didn't keep the actual envelope. They kept a microfiche copy of it.

I just love it when a self-satisfied poster sits back to chomp on his cigar then finds it exploding in his face.

Well done Tim. 

[Jerry Freeman]

I just love it when a self-satisfied poster sits back to chomp on his cigar then finds it exploding in his face.

That was cute. I myself, just love it when a poster sit back on his cigar.   

IN NOVEMBER 2015, DAVID VON PEIN SAID: I'll also add this....Even if that "12" seen in the postmark in CE773 is a postal zone code, I don't see why that couldn't simply mean that after Oswald dropped the letter into a mail slot right there at the Main Post Office in Dallas on 3/12/63 (which I can only assume he must have done since he bought the money order right there in the same building that same morning), the post office stamped the letter SOMEWHERE ELSE, in some OTHER postal zone (#12).
 The mail DOES move around a lot. It's constantly moving from one location to another for sorting, etc.
 So why does the "12" (even if it was a postal zone designation) HAVE to mean Oswald walked many blocks (or miles?) out of his way to mail his letter to Klein's? And even if the post office branch where Oswald bought the money order was the "Main" branch (which I think it was), would that HAVE to mean that every letter mailed there HAD to get STAMPED right there in that building too? I'm not sure it does mean any such thing. Perhaps the postal facility where Oswald's letter was sorted and postmarked was located in some other part of Dallas, and was sent there (to "Zone 12", if the "12" does, indeed, represent a "postal zone", which it might represent; I can't say it doesn't with 100% certainty), instead of being sorted and postmarked right there at the Main Post Office.

The number 12 isn't the way zones were depicted. That was correct at the outset. It is not likely that something that was then mailed at the main post office would be sent to another location to be canceled. Something so easily traced to Oswald's PO Box...why use the name Hidell?
 

[Walt Cakebread]

That was cute. I myself, just love it when a poster sit back on his cigar.     The number 12 isn't the way zones were depicted. That was correct at the outset. It is not likely that something that was then mailed at the main post office would be sent to another location to be canceled. Something so easily traced to Oswald's PO Box...why use the name Hidell?

I myself, just love it when a poster sit back on his cigar.

Cigar???!   ...Look again and sniff the air..... That ain't cigar smoke.

[Jerry Freeman]

a microfiche copy...

Was it not in the Dear Mr Hunt letter thread?... where the FBI states that due to the difficulty of analyzing copies of the letter...it was not possible to determine the authenticity of the handwriting. On the other hand the rifle order was readily determined as authentic. Again go figure-----

The FBI said without the original let-
ter it would be "almost impossible to
certify whether it is genuihe or not,"
the Justice Department source said.

"And they' (FBI) said^that Oswald
has a childlike handwriting and it's
easily forged,? the source said, "so they
just can't tell.?

      https://archive.org/stream/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/Hunt%20Mr%20Letter%2007_djvu.txt

[Tim Nickerson]

Was it not in the Dear Mr Hunt letter thread?... where the FBI states that due to the difficulty of analyzing copies of the letter...it was not possible to determine the authenticity of the handwriting. On the other hand the rifle order was readily determined as authentic. Again go figure-----      https://archive.org/stream/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/nsia-HuntMrLetterSupposedlySentbyOswald/Hunt%20Mr%20Letter%2007_djvu.txt

It is preferable to have original documents over photographs of documents but that isn't always possible. What it comes down to though is the quality of the documents being examined. In the case of the Hunt document, the quality just wasn't there.

From the HSCA TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH McNALLY:

"Mr. MCNALLY - The conclusion of the panel was that the writing on all of these original documents was all done by the, same individual. That also included a number of photographs and photo reproductions. We also concluded these were done by the same individual. However, a word of caution must be introduced here because there are four or five of these documents which were only photo reproductions or photographs examined and compared with the other writings. These photographs of course cannot be examined with the same detail that the original document can be, and there is always some possibility that there are some alterations or something on these particular photographs which cannot be determined because they are not the original document. There is only one document on which we jointly could not arrive at any specific conclusion, and that is the so-called note, JFK exhibit F--506. That particular document is a very fuzzy reproduction and that particular reproduction we could not make any definite determination as to whether or not it was the same writing as all the other writings examined and compared and determined to be from the same individual."
=================================================================

From the WC TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. CADIGAN:

"Mr. EISENBERG. Are you able to identify the handwriting of an individual on the basis of a photograph of that handwriting?
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you make an identification, such an identification, if your only questioned document was a photograph if the photograph was sufficiently clear?
Mr. CADIGAN. If the photograph is sufficiently clear, it is adequate for the handwriting comparison.
Mr. EISENBERG. Similarly with standards, if your only standard was a photograph or your only standards were photographs?
Mr. CADIGAN. If your standards were also photographs, it is possible to make the comparison and arrive at a definite opinion.
Mr. EISENBERG. And were the photographs in this case, both the standard and the questioned documents, clear enough to form the 'basis of an opinion?
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. I might point out that some of the known standards are original documents and not photographs.
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I am aware of that, but I wanted to set out on the record whether the standards which are photographs are adequate----
Mr. CADIGAN. They are adequate."
===================================================================

From the WC TESTIMONY OF ALWYN COLE:

"Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, some of the standards which are in the group 774 to 788 are photographs rather than originals.
Mr. COLE. That is correct.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does a photograph in your opinion provide a sufficient standard
on which to base a conclusion as to a questioned document?
Mr. COLE. Well, I believe these particular photographs are satisfactory for that purpose.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you draw a conclusion as to the origin of a questioned document if your only standard was a photograph?
Mr. COLE. If the photographs were comparable to the photographs we have in this case; yes."

[Jerry Freeman]

So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start.  Oswald did not order this rifle intending to assassinate JFK.  He had no clue when he ordered the rifle that JFK would ever come to Dallas or that he would happen to be working in a building overlooking the motorcade.  He intended to use it to assassinate Walker.  He used an alias to do so.  Covering his tracks to the best of his ability.  He never intended the rifle to be found in his Walker scenario and it was not.  So it worked out fine in that instance.  He had no similar option in the JFK assassination to get away with the rifle.  He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus.  He left within minutes.  Got a cab for the first time.  Not even pausing to ascertain what was going on.  Even after a police officer pulled a gun on him.  Oswald was in full flight murdering a police officer.  Flight doesn't mean he was running away in a panic as some CTers mistakenly suggest constitutes flight.  He was leaving the scene of a crime to avoid apprehension (i.e. flight).  No proof that he owned a rifle?  LOL.  There are pictures of Oswald holding it.  Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number.  His prints are on the rifle.  It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence absent a time machine.  What evidence do you believe we should have that we do not under that circumstances that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the MC rifle?

Upon reviewing old posts about this rifle---That has  to be the silliest.
>>>"Covering his tracks to the best of his ability"<<<< Does this poster ever preview his own blather? Supposedly, Oswald ordered said rifle in the name of Hidell which could apparently be quite easily traced to him. Supposedly, he had Marina take pictures of him with rifle, pistol, and a communist publication which were generated around the world.
Apparently, in his zeal to cover his tracks--Oswald disposed of all his ammunition except the four bullets that were supposedly employed in the alleged shooting at the motorcade and the ammunition that was utilized in the alleged shooting of a cop. There has never been a believable explanation regarding the absence of ammunition in the so called  Oswald arsenal.
>>>"So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start."<<< As usual, Mr Smith starts with the decades old heralding of the Warren Report.
>>> "He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus".<<< ? What does that mean?
>>> " Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number."<<< Documents can't be forged? 
  Research indicates rifles were shipped with serial numbers that had been removed from them.

WHAT SERIAL NUMBER? C2766 WHERE ARE YOU? Harry D. Holmes lied about postal procedures and the WC accepted that lie as fact. A week after the assassination Harry D. Holmes was quoted in a New York Times article where he stated:
        "No one other than Oswald was authorized to receive mail at that box".
Holmes could not have made this statement unless he had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form after the assassination.

It was 24 hours before the alleged assassination weapon ceased to be a Mauser and became a Carcano.
Article here --  http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html
 

[Richard Smith]

Upon reviewing old posts about this rifle---That has  to be the silliest.
>>>"Covering his tracks to the best of his ability"<<<< Does this poster ever preview his own blather? Supposedly, Oswald ordered said rifle in the name of Hidell which could apparently be quite easily traced to him. Supposedly, he had Marina take pictures of him with rifle, pistol, and a communist publication which were generated around the world.
Apparently, in his zeal to cover his tracks--Oswald disposed of all his ammunition except the four bullets that were supposedly employed in the alleged shooting at the motorcade and the ammunition that was utilized in the alleged shooting of a cop. There has never been a believable explanation regarding the absence of ammunition in the so called  Oswald arsenal.
>>>"So much nonsense it is hard to know where to start."<<< As usual, Mr Smith starts with the decades old heralding of the Warren Report.
>>> "He didn't just walk a couple of blocks to a bus".<<< ? What does that mean?
>>> " Documents that confirm that the same rifle found at his workplace was the one sent to him via a matching serial number."<<< Documents can't be forged? 
  Research indicates rifles were shipped with serial numbers that had been removed from them. It was 24 hours before the alleged assassination weapon ceased to be a Mauser and became a Carcano.
Article here --  http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html

Ugh.  Your silly argument appears to be that there is so much evidence of Oswald's guilt that we can only conclude that he is innocent.  Criminals often do stupid things and get caught.  The JFK assassination was not contemplated at the time Oswald ordered the rifle.  It provided a different set of parameters from the situation Oswald was contemplating when he ordered the rifle.  Oswald did not anticipate, for example, having to leave the rifle at a crime scene to be found but if it were recovered the use of an alias might muddy the waters.  There was certainly nothing to lose by using an alias instead of his real name.  And for all Oswald knew, Klein's may not have kept any records of these transactions.  What are you suggesting?  That Oswald should have used his real name or made an in-person purchase directly from a gun shop where he might be remembered?  In which case you would be here arguing that he should have mail ordered the rifle using an alias.  James Earl Ray purchased his rifle from a gun shop and his face was remember by the guy who sold it to him.  There is risk in that method of obtaining the rifle as well.

Here is a very simple notion for you to ponder.  Shooting the president is fraught with enormous risk.  The assassin is going to be killed or arrested no matter what they do.  There is no getting away with it.  Thus, when an assassin decides to make this attempt they accept arrest or death as part of calculation in deciding to commit this act.  Oswald understood that.  That is why he left his money and wedding ring at home that day.  His goose was cooked the second he pulled the trigger.  So claims that he wouldn't have left so much evidence to link him to the crime (i.e. a rifle that could be traced to him) are not persuasive to imply innocence.   Oswald was already a person of interest to the FBI.  He worked in the building from which shots were fired.  He had no alibi.  Oswald knew the authorities would be on to him in short order.  He accepted his fate in return for the infamy of committing the act.  This is where CTers ask why Oswald then tried to escape if there was no hope of getting away.  We know criminals frequently do this no matter how hopeless the situation.  They have nothing to lose.  Oswald was facing death or life in prison.   He was just playing out his hand for as long as possible.  James Earl Ray made it to Canada and then London before he was caught.  There is no getting away and going back to their normal life.  These guys understand that.  That is not inconsistent, however, with playing out their hand for as long as possible.  Oswald had a couple hours head start.  If he had not encountered Tippit, he very well could have made it out of Dallas and perhaps even to Mexico but he would have eventually been caught.