Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Dan O'meara]

Can it realistically be the case that within 40 minutes later a six minute discrepancy emerges between the two "times".
Do the police tapes reveal something that may have contributed to such a discrepancy?

Not sure where the 6 minute discrepancy comes from. I think it's probably closer to about 5 minutes.

Let's call it a 5 minute discrepancy.
It is still quite a substantial difference.

Let's consider the circumstances;

First of all, prior to the assassination there was only normal radio traffic. It is possible, and certainly within an acceptable range, that prior to 12:30 the police radio and other clocks were already two minutes off from the actual time. Bowles said it was not uncommon for that to happen;

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example."

After the assassination, the radio traffic explodes, which causes the dispatchers to call times too late, as Bowles said could happen.

"In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

"Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14."

And then there is the problem that sound activated machines were being used, providing no guarantee for accurate time keeping.

Bowles is describing things that "could" happen or "might" happen and not what "did" happen.
The evidence I have provided in my previous post demonstrates the 12:30pm timestamp on channel 2 was correct as it is corroborated by other "external" sources. It may not have been accurate to the second but it was to the minute.
As such, the idea that the dispatchers clock might have been out as much as two minutes at 12:30pm can be dispensed with.
This is not to say the discrepancy couldn't have crept in after 12:30pm but it is important to get some kind of corroboration for this.

I have also presented the evidence of Brewer appearing in the Allen pic riding the wrong way up Elm St at 12:39pm (according to the Hertz clock). In the DP tape transcript Brewer is dealing with a witness near the triple underpass between 12:37pm and 12:40pm [timestamps on channel 2]. After agreeing to leave the witness there he drives the wrong way up Elm St where he is photographed at 12:39pm. It can be said with some confidence that this evidence precludes a five minute gap at this period.

A six or five minute discrepancy might, at first glance, seem excessive, but given the many variables it is certainly possible. It becomes even more likely when one considers three external elements that all point in the same direction;

1. Markham testified she left her home on 9th street at 1:06 or 1:07. She had a two block walk (about 4 minutes) to go to get to the bus stop on Jefferson where she estimated she got on the bus at 1:15. If Tippit was killed at 1:14 / 1:15, Markham would not have been on the corner of 10th and Patton to watch it.

2. Bowley had just picked up his 12 year old daughter from school and was en route to pick up his wife from work. The school bel rang at 12:55 and the drive from school to 10th street took about 13 minutes. Even if it had taken him roughly 20 minutes, that would still have Bowley arriving at the Tippit scene at around 1:14 or 1:15, which is when the shooting allegedly took place. But when he arrived at the scene the killer was already gone and Benavides was trying work the radio. Bowley said that he looked at his watch and it said 1:10 and the timing of his drive confirms that time must have been about correct, give or take a minute perhaps.

3. Tippit was declared D.O.A. at Methodist Hospital at 1:15 and DPD officer Davenport confirms that time in two different reports.

Either all these three events, combined, must be wrong or the time calls on DPD radio are wrong.

Obviously I'm aware of this evidence but am trying to approach the problem from a different angle - how the events in and around Dealey Plaza relate to Bowley's call on the police radio, in terms of timing.
It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

[Martin Weidmann]

Let's call it a 5 minute discrepancy.
It is still quite a substantial difference.

Bowles is describing things that "could" happen or "might" happen and not what "did" happen.
The evidence I have provided in my previous post demonstrates the 12:30pm timestamp on channel 2 was correct as it is corroborated by other "external" sources. It may not have been accurate to the second but it was to the minute.
As such, the idea that the dispatchers clock might have been out as much as two minutes at 12:30pm can be dispensed with.
This is not to say the discrepancy couldn't have crept in after 12:30pm but it is important to get some kind of corroboration for this.

I have also presented the evidence of Brewer appearing in the Allen pic riding the wrong way up Elm St at 12:39pm (according to the Hertz clock). In the DP tape transcript Brewer is dealing with a witness near the triple underpass between 12:37pm and 12:40pm [timestamps on channel 2]. After agreeing to leave the witness there he drives the wrong way up Elm St where he is photographed at 12:39pm. It can be said with some confidence that this evidence precludes a five minute gap at this period.


Obviously I'm aware of this evidence but am trying to approach the problem from a different angle - how the events in and around Dealey Plaza relate to Bowley's call on the police radio, in terms of timing.
It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

Fair enough, but how much time do you think the discrepancy could be?

[Dan O'meara]

It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

Fair enough, but how much time do you think the discrepancy could be?

At the moment I can't find anything that might support a discrepancy of more than 3 minutes at the very most.

[Vincent Baxter]

Out of my quite substantial post you pick one line:

"And who's to say the Hertz clock represents "real" time."

To which your response is - "Exactly"

And in one line you've pretty much summed up Iacoletti
Takes one line from a lengthy post, takes it completely out of context and then argues against a point that you weren't even making in the first place  .

[Martin Weidmann]

And in one line you've pretty much summed up Iacoletti
Takes one line from a lengthy post, takes it completely out of context and then argues against a point that you weren't even making in the first place  .

Mytton didn't have time? 

[Vincent Baxter]

Mytton didn't have time? 

Have time for what? Well done on attempting a joke that didn't actually make sense.

Have you calmed down from your explosive rant and excessive 'throwing your toys out of the pram' moment with regards to the $25,000 challenge that got our previous thread disabled yet, Weidmann?
Still haven't received a PM with the contact info for yours (and Otto's) solicitors yet. 

[Martin Weidmann]

Have time for what? Well done on attempting a joke that didn't actually make sense.

Have you calmed down from your explosive rant and excessive 'throwing your toys out of the pram' moment with regards to the $25,000 challenge that got our previous thread disabled yet, Weidmann?
Still haven't received a PM with the contact info for yours (and Otto's) solicitors yet. 

Have time for what? Well done on attempting a joke that didn't actually make sense.

But you still got it, anyway... I wonder why

[John Iacoletti]

To suggest I'm not providing evidence is ridiculous and misrepresentative.
Juries use common sense all the time to determine which "narrative" is the most realistic/probable.

Perhaps they do, but that doesn’t make it evidence.

The "Prosecution Narrative" in the case of JFK's assassination is well known, it is the narrative espoused by all LNers. To counter it, there must be a "Defense Narrative" that has emerged from the same evidence available to the Prosecution.

This is why it’s important to distinguish actual evidence from assumptions made about the evidence. The WC narrative is not conclusively supported by the totality of the evidence.

This is the reason why all the pseudo-defense attorneys who inhabit this forum are irrelevant and always will be - they never provide a "Defense Narrative".

No, that doesn’t absolve the people who make up a narrative from demonstrating that it’s actually true. The burden of proof always lies on the person making the positive claim. The only thing that’s required to reject a claim is to show that it has not met that burden. For example it was not rational to accept as true the claim that the moon is made of cheese prior to humans visiting it. There wasn’t any conclusive evidence to support that — it was just a narrative made up by somebody who considered it “common sense”. Sure, it’s better to keep investigating and come up with a correct answer, but it’s not a requirement for rejection. The point in showing that the proffered evidence is either not evidence at all (ring in a cup), questionable/tainted (lineups), or not pointing to a specific person (shells by the window) is to show why the burden of proof has not been met.

We are left with determining which narrative is most realistic, most probable, and "common sense" is key to making this determination.

Right. And the best answer that fits all the known evidence is “undetermined”. I know that doesn’t satisfy people who would rather have an answer, even if they have to make one up, but it is what it is.

The McIntire pic below, taken from the Unger gallery, shows the Hertz clock reading 12:30pm.

Agreed.

So whatever I present is never going to be an "Absolute Truth" as this is impossible to do.

Also agreed. Which is why the legal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, not just “story makes sense to me”.

The screenshot below shows the moment in the DP tape transcripts that the assassination occurs:

Also agreed.

Dave Powers "was Special Assistant and assistant Appointments Secretary" to JFK.
My common sense is telling me that the assistant Appointments Secretary to the most powerful man on the planet is someone very concerned with timekeeping.

That’s not the same kind of assumption as the previous two. In fact it has no evidentiary basis at all. And even if it happens to be correct, that doesn’t mean his watch was precise or that he remembered it properly. A photo carries much more weight.

As was his custom, he kept a close eye on his watch regarding the timekeeping of JFK's appointments.

You have given no basis for declaring this as his custom.

Greer witnesses Kellerman look at his watch and then hears him say "12:30". My common sense is telling me that Kellerman's watch was reading 12:30pm which is why he said "12:30". This happened when they were in underpass, seconds after the assassination.

The problem with this is that it’s hearsay. Greer didn’t see what Kellerman’s watch said. There’s a reason that hearsay testimony is generally not permitted in a trial.

Four pieces of evidence all pointing to 12:30pm as the time of the assassination.

But the only one you have physical evidence for is the Hertz clock. And there’s no compelling reason to believe it must be more accurate than any other timepiece.

Can it realistically be the case that within 40 minutes later a six minute discrepancy emerges between the two "times".

Absolutely. Because Curry’s 12:30 announcement was on channel 2 and all the Tippit related timechecks were on channel 1. Different dispatcher, different clock. And besides that, the time of the Tippit shooting is not captured on the police recordings at all — only the aftermath.