Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Mitch Todd]

Yes the driveway between 404 and 410 I cannot really respond whether it was proven she lived at the apartment Here is a better quote on Guinyard


 Mrs. Holan?s account of a second police car is supported by the comments of Sam Guinyard, who told Brownlow in 1970 that he saw a police car in the alley shortly after the police shooting. The man in the driveway was apparently also seen by others: a resident of the neighborhood, who wishes to remain anonymous, told Prof Pulte, in 1990, that he had heard about a man in the driveway who approached Tippit?s car.

Frank Wright, who lived half a block east of the shooting, told reporter Earl Golz that he saw two men involved in the crime. But that was a belated addition to his earlier account of seeing one man drive off in a car. To Golz he mentioned another man fleeing on foot.

...independent researchers George and Patricia Nash ...in 1964... reported Wright telling them that after hearing the shots, he came out of his home at 501 East Tenth and saw Tippit hit the ground and roll over after being shot. Wright said he saw a man standing near Tippit, not holding a gun but wearing a  long coat (contrary to most other witnesses' description of a fleeing man wearing a light jacket), run away and drive off, alone, in a 'grey, little old coupe. It was about a 1950-51, maybe a Plymouth'.

Guinyard would be a better source had he mentioned this in '63/'64. Also would be helpful if Brownlow would submit a recording or transcript of the interview.

Wright's story doesn't corroborate Holan's. In her account, the police car in the driveway and the mystery man are moving towards the street immediately after the shooting. The mystery man walked up to Tippit as if to examine him, then slowly retreated with the police car back down the driveway.  In Wright's, the car is an old two-door parked on the street that mystery guy gets into and drives off in.

Interestingly enough, Wright's testimony parallels Jimmy Burt's. Burt claims that he and a friend, William A. Smith, were hanging out at Burt's brother's house on 9th and Denver. When they heard the shot, Smith and Burt got into Burt's '52 Ford and drove towards the wound of gunfire. They parked on the street just in front of Tippit's car, and Burt was able to see the gunman cross Patton. If Wright is correct, then Burt and his '52 Ford might be the guy he saw. But there are a couple of problems here. Will Smith's version is of the same story is very different. It starts at the apartment of Burt's father-in-law, at 505 E. 10th rather than 9th and Denver. There is also no car ride in Smith's version. Interestingly, 510 E 10th would have made Wright and Burt neighbors, but I figure Wright would have likely named Burt as the mystery man if he recognized him. Also coincidentally, Smith was a neighbor of Helen Markham's, and a friend of her son James.

Burt's story is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burt.htm
Smith's is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith_w.htm

[Walt Cakebread]

When police cars are roaring up and down the road with sirens blaring most people will look toward them not duck away and try to hide (i.e. act suspiciously).   Are you suggesting there is something sinister about Brewer - a random shoe salesman that Oswald encountered?  LOL  I guess everyone in Dallas was part of the plot except for old Lee who was just going about his business like Mr. Magoo in complete bliss.  I do wonder how the fantasy conspirators knew in advance which citizens Oswald would encounter that day and convince them to lie or act in a way contrary to his interest.  They must have had Nostradamus-type abilities.

When police cars are roaring up and down the road with sirens blaring most people will look toward them not duck away and try to hide (i.e. act suspiciously).

Lee Oswald wasn't trying to hide when Officer Marrion Baker confronted him in the second floor lunchroom.....He showed no sign of fear nor did he make any attempt to hide or be evasive.....

And yet you are foolish enough to believe that it was Lee Oswald who Brewer claimed he saw "acting suspicious"...

If... I say IF.... Brewer saw a man, whom he through his powers of reading peoples actions, and minds, was actually Lee Oswald ..... Then explain to me why Lee would have been  being evasive and duck away from a police car that was passing by at high speed ( a time when the driver would have been concentrating on his driving and not observing
shoppers looking in shop windows) When he exhibited none of that behavior in the lunchroom.    ?

[Richard Smith]

When police cars are roaring up and down the road with sirens blaring most people will look toward them not duck away and try to hide (i.e. act suspiciously).

Lee Oswald wasn't trying to hide when Officer Marrion Baker confronted him in the second floor lunchroom.....He showed no sign of fear nor did he make any attempt to hide or be evasive.....

And yet you are foolish enough to believe that it was Lee Oswald who Brewer claimed he saw "acting suspicious"...

If... I say IF.... Brewer saw a man, whom he through his powers of reading peoples actions, and minds, was actually Lee Oswald ..... Then explain to me why Lee would have been  being evasive and duck away from a police car that was passing by at high speed ( a time when the driver would have been concentrating on his driving and not observing
shoppers looking in shop windows) When he exhibited none of that behavior in the lunchroom.    ?

Oswald was evasive in both instances.  In the TSBD instance, Oswald fled into the lunch room to evade the police coming up the stairs.   Baker saw him and pulled a gun on him.  At that point, there is nothing for Oswald to do except play it out.  What was he going to do at that point?  Climb behind the water cooler?  He does a similar thing outside Brewer's shoe store by turning away from the police cars on the road and trying to conceal himself.  That draws Brewer's attention as suspicious - which it was.  Are you claiming that Brewer was in on the fantasy plot?  It's difficult to understand how the conspirators pulled that off and ensured that Oswald was in the TT.

[Richard Smith]

Will you ever stop lying?

Baker left Oswald (if he ever was there) because he cooperated.

Brewer's story is fully uncorroborated.

Try following along for once.  Walt asked why Oswald acted differently at the TSBD than he did outside the shoe store.  The answer is that he didn't.  He was evasive in both instances by trying to hide in the lunchroom and ducking away from the street in front of Brewer's shoe store.  In both instances he drew the attention of someone as being suspicious (i.e. Baker and Brewer).  Baker only allowed him to go on because Truly vouched for him as an employee. 

[Richard Smith]

He was evasive in both instances [...]

There is are no corroboration for any of your claims.

How often does this have to be explained to you?

You haven't "explained" anything.  It's clear you are having difficulty even understanding what is being discussed.  Walt suggested that Oswald was not evasive at the TSBD in the same way he appeared to be to Brewer.  If Oswald was the assassin, then his trip into the lunchroom was clearly an attempt to be evasive.  He wasn't thirsty and pausing for a soft drink after assassinating the president.  He was trying to avoid Baker and Truly who were coming up the stairs.  You are free to ignore the evidence and conclude that Oswald was not the assassin.   But if he was, then he his lunchroom diversion is clearly an attempt at evading the police.  Just as his sudden desire to go shoe shopping when the police were roaring up and down the road in front of Brewer's shop were an attempt at evasion.   They are entirely consistent actions for a guilty Oswald.  They are not  - as Walt stupidly suggests - inconsistent actions that somehow demonstrate Oswald's innocence.

[Matt Grantham]

Guinyard would be a better source had he mentioned this in '63/'64. Also would be helpful if Brownlow would submit a recording or transcript of the interview.

Wright's story doesn't corroborate Holan's. In her account, the police car in the driveway and the mystery man are moving towards the street immediately after the shooting. The mystery man walked up to Tippit as if to examine him, then slowly retreated with the police car back down the driveway.  In Wright's, the car is an old two-door parked on the street that mystery guy gets into and drives off in.

Interestingly enough, Wright's testimony parallels Jimmy Burt's. Burt claims that he and a friend, William A. Smith, were hanging out at Burt's brother's house on 9th and Denver. When they heard the shot, Smith and Burt got into Burt's '52 Ford and drove towards the wound of gunfire. They parked on the street just in front of Tippit's car, and Burt was able to see the gunman cross Patton. If Wright is correct, then Burt and his '52 Ford might be the guy he saw. But there are a couple of problems here. Will Smith's version is of the same story is very different. It starts at the apartment of Burt's father-in-law, at 505 E. 10th rather than 9th and Denver. There is also no car ride in Smith's version. Interestingly, 510 E 10th would have made Wright and Burt neighbors, but I figure Wright would have likely named Burt as the mystery man if he recognized him. Also coincidentally, Smith was a neighbor of Helen Markham's, and a friend of her son James.

Burt's story is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burt.htm
Smith's is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith_w.htm

 No real disagreement in terms of the context and delayed testimony The only question that occurs to me is whether t his was their story right from the beginning but no researcher, or commission, was available to let them tell their tales Thanks for including the Burt story, I remember seeing that but had lost track of it

 

[Walt Cakebread]

Oswald was evasive in both instances.  In the TSBD instance, Oswald fled into the lunch room to evade the police coming up the stairs.   Baker saw him and pulled a gun on him.  At that point, there is nothing for Oswald to do except play it out.  What was he going to do at that point?  Climb behind the water cooler?  He does a similar thing outside Brewer's shoe store by turning away from the police cars on the road and trying to conceal himself.  That draws Brewer's attention as suspicious - which it was.  Are you claiming that Brewer was in on the fantasy plot?  It's difficult to understand how the conspirators pulled that off and ensured that Oswald was in the TT.

Are you claiming that Brewer was in on the fantasy plot?

Yes!!!  Absolutely.....   Brewer was waaaay too deeply involved to be accepted as a casual  shop keeper....  No shoe store manager would get involved and run the risk of being shot by a crazed gunman in a dark theater.  Brewer was involved.....

[Mitch Todd]

But you have NOT shown this with supporting evidence. You have just made an empty claim.

I did. It was in reply #872:

"If you doubt me about a .38 special version of the Colt 1911, you can look here:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/13/38-special-colt-1911/

[For that matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_52]"

For instance, "In 1961 Smith & Wesson Model introduced the Model 52 as a match-grade target pistol derived from the Smith & Wesson Model 39. It was chambered in .38 Special Wadcutter for the sport of Bullseye shooting." Which part "1961" did you not understand?