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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 444907 times)

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2184 on: May 16, 2021, 01:22:30 AM »
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You guys are incorrect. Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance before he got on the patrol car radio. The order of events on the police tapes tell you this.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2184 on: May 16, 2021, 01:22:30 AM »


Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2185 on: May 16, 2021, 02:07:36 AM »
Bill: How many shells/spent cartridge cases were found near/around Tippit's body or the police car?

If the shooter had a automatic I would think that that's where they would be located and/or found.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2186 on: May 16, 2021, 08:40:56 AM »
You guys are incorrect. Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance before he got on the patrol car radio. The order of events on the police tapes tell you this.

Extremely weak! That's all you have to say? Do you really think we are going to take your word for it just because you say so and have drawn the wrong conclusion from the police tapes? Really?

In a previous post you wrote;

Wow.

All of that yada yada yada and you still don't know what you're talking about.

By the time Callaway testified in 1964, he was slightly off in the order of events, regarding loading the body into the ambulance and reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher.

All you really have to do is study the police tapes.

602 is the Kinsley/Butler ambulance.  As they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body, they made an attempt to get hold of the police dispatcher to notify the dispatcher that they were en route to Methodist Hospital.

Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) didn't hear their attempt because at the same time, Callaway (after helping load the body into the ambulance) then went over to the patrol car radio, grabbed the mic and reported: "Hello, Hello, Hello.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead."

Callaway was told by the dispatcher that  the police had the information and to remain off the air.

When Callaway (during his testimony) said "By this time, an ambulance was coming", he was correct.  Another ambulance (605) had been dispatched to the scene but the first ambulance (602) had already left for Methodist with the body.

I wouldn't really expect you to know any of this because (besides the sad reality that you're only interested in scoring points) it requires some work and maybe more importantly, an understanding of the big picture after having read EVERYTHING (as opposed to just Callaway's testimony).  But, you haven't read EVERYTHING, only what you feel works for you at the moment.

Get a clue.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf

but you clearly overlooked that this;

602 is the Kinsley/Butler ambulance.  As they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body, they made an attempt to get hold of the police dispatcher to notify the dispatcher that they were en route to Methodist Hospital.

Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) didn't hear their attempt because at the same time, Callaway (after helping load the body into the ambulance) then went over to the patrol car radio, grabbed the mic and reported: "Hello, Hello, Hello.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead."


is explained in the Nash article, from which Dan O'meara quoted

Just reading through the 1964 Nash article " The Other Witnesses" in which it states:

"Butler radioed his arrival at the scene at 1:18 p.m., within 60 seconds of leaving the funeral home. He remembers that there were at least 10 people standing around the man lying on the ground. It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman.
   
Butler ran back to his radio to inform headquarters. The radio was busy and he could not cut in. He yelled “Mayday” to no avail, and went back to Tippit."

This is surely a reference to the part on the tapes when 602 is trying to call in but is cut across by Callaway's call.
This appears to confirm that Callaway was in Tippit's car at the time the ambulance arrived, Butler discovers the victim is a police officer then tries to call in but Callaway is on the radio. It is after this Tippit is loaded into the ambulance.

And are you aware of the fact that Callaway not only told the WC in his testimony, but also told FBI agent Arthur Carter, on 02/25/64, that he first made the call and then helped to put Tippit in the ambulance?

So, why do you think you know better than Callaway?

Bottom line; you're wrong again. Deal with it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 11:11:46 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2186 on: May 16, 2021, 08:40:56 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2187 on: May 16, 2021, 07:01:41 PM »
Bill: How many shells/spent cartridge cases were found near/around Tippit's body or the police car?

If the shooter had a automatic I would think that that's where they would be located and/or found.

Great question, Steve... And the answer is zero, of course.

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2188 on: May 16, 2021, 07:19:55 PM »
If you read [Bowles], read carefully. It doesn't mean what Martin would like you to believe.

That's weird, because I just quoted the man without giving an opinion and - unlike you - wasn't trying to spin it.
So, you weren't trying to spin anything at all when you tried to use Bowles' statements to claim that "[a]t best the time calls on the DPD recordings are the product of a very weak system" a few pages back?

When you boil it down and winnow out the irrelevancies, the FUD, and the hypothetical worst-case scenarios, you have two statements by Bowles that sum up the situation:

1.)  "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the 'official' time shown on the master clock" [note defensive use of litotes here, by the way]
2.)  "When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments." 


And here is me thinking he actually said;

"When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

You must have missed that last bit, right?
Didn't miss it at all. However, I'm missing where you showed Bowles actually stating that the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon. Or any other evidence that the clocks were off spec.
As I said (and you deleted it without responding to it), "You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it. Bowles himself was the supervisor of the dispatch center. Later, he spent a great deal of time pouring over the Dictabelt when he prepared the original channel one transcripts. And yet, he can't point to a single such exception."



Lottie Thompson was the Methodist Hospital ER nurse whom Martin brings into the conversation from time to time. In the 70's, she told Earl Golz that the clock in the Methodist ER was 15 minutes behind on November 22.

First of all, I have never brought up Lottie Thompson and, secondly, Methodist Hospital only had one clock? Really?

Also, DPD officer Davenport (who, unlike Mr. Todd, was actually present at the hospital when all this happened) presented to the DPD identification bureau a button from Tippit's uniform and a bullet taken from his corpse at 1:30. So, if the nurse was correct, they took a bullet from Tippit's body when he was not even declared DOA. Really?

Anyway, Davenport wrote in his own hand on the form that Tippit had been declared DOA at 1:15. Go figure.... now why would he lie on day one?
Like Davenport, Nurse Thompson was also in the Methodist ER that afternoon. Unlike Davenport, she was there every workday and had a much better perspective on the functioning of the Hospital's timekeeping machinery. Her bringing up the issue with Golz implies that she didn't believe that Tippt was wheeled in at 1:15 or just before.

BTW, who claimed Davenport lied? I never did. But if he's basing time of DOA on a clock that's way off, then his report will be way off because of it. Or, if Davenport (who was a traffic cop and not a murder investigator) is told that Ligouri was going to declare Tippit DOA and put the time of death at 1:15, and misunderstands the difference between time of death and time declared dead, he's still going to honestly wrong.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2188 on: May 16, 2021, 07:19:55 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2189 on: May 16, 2021, 07:24:26 PM »
Great question, Steve... And the answer is zero, of course.

If it were an automatic, you'd expect the empty cases to be flung to the right of the shooter. That is, to the east of Tippit's car. The cases that were recovered were well to the west.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2190 on: May 16, 2021, 08:31:38 PM »
So, you weren't trying to spin anything at all when you tried to use Bowles' statements to claim that "[a]t best the time calls on the DPD recordings are the product of a very weak system" a few pages back?

Didn't miss it at all. However, I'm missing where you showed Bowles actually stating that the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon. Or any other evidence that the clocks were off spec.
As I said (and you deleted it without responding to it), "You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it. Bowles himself was the supervisor of the dispatch center. Later, he spent a great deal of time pouring over the Dictabelt when he prepared the original channel one transcripts. And yet, he can't point to a single such exception."

Like Davenport, Nurse Thompson was also in the Methodist ER that afternoon. Unlike Davenport, she was there every workday and had a much better perspective on the functioning of the Hospital's timekeeping machinery. Her bringing up the issue with Golz implies that she didn't believe that Tippt was wheeled in at 1:15 or just before.

BTW, who claimed Davenport lied? I never did. But if he's basing time of DOA on a clock that's way off, then his report will be way off because of it. Or, if Davenport (who was a traffic cop and not a murder investigator) is told that Ligouri was going to declare Tippit DOA and put the time of death at 1:15, and misunderstands the difference between time of death and time declared dead, he's still going to honestly wrong.

Didn't miss it at all. However, I'm missing where you showed Bowles actually stating that the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon. Or any other evidence that the clocks were off spec.

You clearly missed the preponderance of evidence that justifies the conclusion that the clocks were indeed off

And why should I show where Bowles said the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon, when the man has already told the HSCA that the Simplex clock used by the dispatchers indicated the incorrect time.? After such a blanket statement from the man in charge, it's upon you to show that they did work correctly and showed the correct time on November 22nd 1963.

"There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." - J.C. Bowles

As I said (and you deleted it without responding to it), "You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it.

Not sure what you are rambling on about, but I never deleted anything you said nor did I ever claim that "Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days". In fact, it seems to have been a normal day with dispatcher's clocks showing the wrong time. If anything was different it probably was that the time stamps called out by the dispatchers were also off due to the heavy radio traffic.

Like Davenport, Nurse Thompson was also in the Methodist ER that afternoon. Unlike Davenport, she was there every workday and had a much better perspective on the functioning of the Hospital's timekeeping machinery. Her bringing up the issue with Golz implies that she didn't believe that Tippt was wheeled in at 1:15 or just before.

Nurse Thompson can believe what she wants. If you look hard enough you will likely always find somebody who says what you want to hear, but a belief by an idividual can hardly be enough to challenge first day documents. On the day it actually happened, Davenport and his partner Bardin wrote in their report that Tippit was declared dead at 1:15 and Davenport wrote in his own hand that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 on the form he used to submit a button from Tippit's jacket and a bullet removed from his body (at 1:30) to the DPD Identification Bureau.

BTW, who claimed Davenport lied? I never did. But if he's basing time of DOA on a clock that's way off, then his report will be way off because of it.

What makes you think that Davenport used a clock that's way off? Who said that?

Or, if Davenport (who was a traffic cop and not a murder investigator) is told that Ligouri was going to declare Tippit DOA and put the time of death at 1:15, and misunderstands the difference between time of death and time declared dead, he's still going to honestly wrong.

Are you trying to argue that a traffic cop is not as able as a murder investigator to read a clock? If you're not, then why did you bring it uo? You seem to be desperate for Davenport to be wrong. In their report Davenport and Bardin state that they were present in the emergency room where they watched the doctors and nurses trying to bring Tippit back to life and that Dr Liquori pronounced him dead at 1:15. Nobody told them nor was there a misunderstanding, Davenport and Bardin were there. They heard and saw it. And btw, there is not difference between death and time delared dead in this case. Declared DOA is exactly that. Dead on arrival. There isn't a ER doctor who declares somebody DOA by trying to figure out when exactly that person died. That's just plain silly.

One final comment. LNs constantly tells us non-believers that we should not examine each individual piece of evidence seperately, but instead should look at the bigger picture. This happens mainly when we are discussing the MC rifle etc. Yet here you are ignoring a complete interlocking time line based on solid corroboration by witness statements, documents and local knowledge and all you do is pick two items (dispatcher clock & Bowles and Davenport) to discuss. Why is that? Do you think you can score points that way?

Why not take on the entire time line and tell us all what is wrong with it (other of course that it does not match the DPD radio transcripts, because we already know that and have explained it)?

Here's the actual bottom line. When J.C. Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers tells the HSCA that the dispatcher's clocks showed incorrect times, and when he clearly states that police time is not the same as real time, why would anybody still go out of his/her way to argue that the time stamp calls on the DPD recordings/transcripts are correct nevertheless?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 10:04:53 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2191 on: May 16, 2021, 08:49:16 PM »
You need to go back a few posts to see my examination of the DPD tapes and how they demonstrate the ambulance arriving at the murder scene before Callaway makes his call.
On McAdams DPD tapes pages, you can download a sections of the channel one recording, though it's in Real Audio format. One of those sections covers the period in question. If you listen, you'll notice that the transmission corresponding to the second (after 1:19) "602 code 6" in the transcript doesn't really sound like what is in the transcript. Specifically, the "6" in "code 6" doesn't sounds like someone saying "6". I'll let you decide for yourself, it to me it sounds like someone else tried to break onto the channel and rendered the end of whatever 602 was trying to say unintelligable.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2191 on: May 16, 2021, 08:49:16 PM »