What happened to the Mauser?

[Jake Maxwell]

Was the Alyea film promoted at the time as finding the assassin's rifle?

[Patrick Jackson]

It is very hard to explain that Mauser/Carcano mess.
I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine but speaking about Carcano on 11/22 it is very hard to rule out that the Carcano brought latter into TSBD.
First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said. There is huge possibility that interpreter was translating what the public needed to hear.
I think that police did find the Carcano in Ruth Paine garage and that their first collusion was that Oswald took the rifle with him while leaving TSBD. Put yourself in 2PM on 11/22 and think about it. Oswald missing, initial search did not found the rifle which was hidden near the stairs. Initial taught: Oswald took the rifle with him. After the rifle was found in the garage it was brought to TSBD and "story" continued as it was found in TSBD.
You have to be aware that after Oswald was murdered all efforts were made to show him as assassin and that is the boldest truth of all.

[Walt Cakebread]

It is very hard to explain that Mauser/Carcano mess.
I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine but speaking about Carcano on 11/22 it is very hard to rule out that the Carcano brought latter into TSBD.
First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said. There is huge possibility that interpreter was translating what the public needed to hear.
I think that police did find the Carcano in Ruth Paine garage and that their first collusion was that Oswald took the rifle with him while leaving TSBD. Put yourself in 2PM on 11/22 and think about it. Oswald missing, initial search did not found the rifle which was hidden near the stairs. Initial taught: Oswald took the rifle with him. After the rifle was found in the garage it was brought to TSBD and "story" continued as it was found in TSBD.
You have to be aware that after Oswald was murdered all efforts were made to show him as assassin and that is the boldest truth of all.

"I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine"

I believe that you're right...  Lee did order a Mannlicher Carcano using a money order that was purchased by George De Morhenschildt.  Lee used that rifle to create the B.Y. photo CE 133A which he intended to convince the viewer that he was a communist revolutionary like Fidel Castro.  IOW...The primary intended use of that Carcano was simply a stage prop.
Lee Oswald himself apparently pronounced ONE of the Back Yard photos to be a fake..... I believe that photo was 133c...which is the photo Roscoe White gave to his wife....and it is the photo the police used to re-enact the back yard scene.

First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said.

In November of 1983 the DMN published a special  twentieth anniversary  edition of the Coup d 'e'tat ......

In that paper Marina said.." We went to the garage to get the rifle, but the rifle was not in THE SACK"

She did not say the rifle was not in the Blanket.... So I believe that Marina was recalling seeing the rifle in  a paper wrapper at some point......There's no doubt that the rifle was not there in the blanket.   

[Patrick Jackson]

"I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine"

I believe that you're right...  Lee did order a Mannlicher Carcano using a money order that was purchased by George De Morhenschildt.  Lee used that rifle to create the B.Y. photo CE 133A which he intended to convince the viewer that he was a communist revolutionary like Fidel Castro.  IOW...The primary intended use of that Carcano was simply a stage prop.
Lee Oswald himself apparently pronounced ONE of the Back Yard photos to be a fake..... I believe that photo was 133c...which is the photo Roscoe White gave to his wife....and it is the photo the police used to re-enact the back yard scene.

First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said.

In November of 1983 the DMN published a special  twentieth anniversary  edition of the Coup d 'e'tat ......

In that paper Marina said.." We went to the garage to get the rifle, but the rifle was not in THE SACK"

She did not say the rifle was not in the Blanket.... So I believe that Marina was recalling seeing the rifle in  a paper wrapper at some point......There's no doubt that the rifle was not there in the blanket.

On 11/22 officers that went to the 2515 West Fifth Irving street were Richard Stovall, John Adamick and Guy Rose.

Stovall:
Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket,
as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.  well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.
Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?
Mr. Srovau. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.
Mr. BALL. A white what?
Mr. STDVALL. A white twine-it was thicker than a kite twine that you see
or use on kites-more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying
them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me--
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?
Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had
pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth
Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.

Adamick:
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.
Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.
Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.
Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea.
Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see.
Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. Just normal.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up.

Rose:
Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.
Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.
Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle, I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it.
Mr. BALL. You brought that in?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

So, three detectives did not roll the blanket out. None of them stated, we rolled the blanket out and saw it was empty.
It seems to be very unclear if the blanket was empty or not. Why wouldn't they unroll it and see that it was empty? Because it wasn't.

[Jake Maxwell]

Pssssst....Richie..... There is photographic PROOF that there was seven red rings on the windows of the TSBD at the time of the coup d e'tat....   We can argue about the meaning of those red rings but there's no denying that they were there...and   there is also photographic PROOF that the rifle that was found where it had been carefully hidden beneath heavy boxes of books was the mannlicher carcano.....

Photos  prove that my positions on both issues are valid......

Walt, I'd be interested as a newbie to see the photographs of the red rings... I've never seen them or much read about them... Could you post a photo or give me a link?
Thanks, Jake

[Nicholas Turner]

On 11/22 officers that went to the 2515 West Fifth Irving street were Richard Stovall, John Adamick and Guy Rose.

Stovall:
Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket,
as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.  well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.
Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?
Mr. Srovau. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.
Mr. BALL. A white what?
Mr. STDVALL. A white twine-it was thicker than a kite twine that you see
or use on kites-more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying
them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me--
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?
Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had
pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth
Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.

Adamick:
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.
Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.
Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.
Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea.
Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see.
Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. Just normal.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up.

Rose:
Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.
Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.
Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle, I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it.
Mr. BALL. You brought that in?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

So, three detectives did not roll the blanket out. None of them stated, we rolled the blanket out and saw it was empty.
It seems to be very unclear if the blanket was empty or not. Why wouldn't they unroll it and see that it was empty? Because it wasn't.

I'm sure they could tell if a rolled up blanket had anything rigid in it without unrolling it.

[Walt Cakebread]

Many folks who are ignorant about the differences between a Argentine 7.65 Mauser, and the Italian Mannlicher Carcano
( which was found carefully hidden beneath boxes of books, near the NW stairway in the TSBD ) should pay attention to Weitzman's description of the rifle that he described for the FBI report.....

Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling

five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
brown-black leather bandolier type strap


Note the date.....  November 23, 1963

Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser

Weitzman said the rifle was a 7.65 caliber bolt action, Mauser.

five shot clip

The Carcano uses a SIX cartridge clip

locked on the underside of trigger guard

The six shot carcano clip is loaded from the top....It slides down into the magazine.....

rear portion of the bold visibly worn

The Carcano bolt is NOT visibly worn

wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent

The wooden stock of the Mannlicher Carcano is NOT damaged

four power 18 scope

The scope on the Mannlicher Carcano was not stamped four power, 18

 equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling

Look at the photos of the Mannlicher carcano....It has a flimsy light duty sling ...black on the finish side, and pink or tan on the raw side ...And it it NOT a bandolier type sling......

Obviously, the rifle being described in the FBI report is a 7.65 Mauser and it is NOT a Mannlicher Carcano.

I can't find the film clips of Detective Day removing the carcano from beneath the boxes of books.....Would someone please post a link to that film?

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, I'd be interested as a newbie to see the photographs of the red rings... I've never seen them or much read about them... Could you post a photo or give me a link?
Thanks, Jake

Hi Jake.....The color photos showing the red rings have been posted many times in this forum.....I'll see if I can find a good link.

PS   There is a color photo ( The Powell photo) on page 158 of TKOAP  that shows the red rings on the windows of the TSBD.